In freestyle footbag, we’ve got a term called ‘the’ where your leg does a movement that’s supposed to go around the bag in the air, but doesn’t actually go around the bag. It’s coiner, Kenny Shults, says he took the term from freestyle frisbee; his description was that it was essentially what it was called when you broke the consecutivity that you speak of above. Does this term mean anything to you? I think it might have been spelled differently (perhaps “thuh”?). Thoughts?
In Freestyle Frisbee, a The is when you’re not doing a trick. One theory is, everything should be a trick and each trick is consecutive with no pauses or breaks. So a the is a blank moment. My guess is that it originated with “The” catch…you catch the disc with 1 hand but no restriction, spins, or anything…the way most people would catch. But it expanded over time to a “the delay” or “the brush”.
One interesting difference between freestyle footbag and freestyle frisbee is that footbag is very percussive and doesn’t have a stop point. Frisbee has times when the disc in spinning on your finger and there’s the catch, which is a natural stop point. So most Thes in frisbee tend to be the catch. The rest are more open for debate. Not that I’m foot bag expert ;-).
We do have leg overs and hoops that are sometimes not clean. E.G. The disc doesn’t go under your leg or through the hoop..or the hoop was not really closed. We don’t call those a The. Maybe we should…”the hoop”. We also have a catch called a presention. It’s basically a the, but your elbow is on the inside of your knee…like a fake figure 4 catch.
Of course, dropping the disc is the ultimate deduction. So a the is better every time.
BTW – I know Kenny. He plays freestyle frisbee with us sometimes! I’d play footbag with him, but I have ZERO foot bag skills.
How are you able to live stream with the HDR-PJ540? I just bought one and was told by Sony support that live streaming is not possible with this camera. I appreciate any insight you can provide. Thanks!
I use 3 blackmagic intensity capture devices: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity, for 3 Sony cameras. They grab the HDMI out from the cameras and put it into my computer uncompressed via thunderbolt or USB3. I stream at 720p. One of the features I like about Sony vs all other cameras I have tried is that I can set the output resolution on the HDMI to 720p so my computer does not have to downconvert it before streaming it.
Matt, nice videos! Very helpful. Do you have any recommendations as to the size disc to use, or the best silicone spray? How about the difference between a two-handed self-toss vs. a one-handed one? Is that personal preference or are there reasons for one or the other?
I prefer the 160 gram Discraft Sky Styler. A 175 gram Ultrastar can work. In fact it might be easier to center delay, though I have not tried one for freestyle in years. But it’s a little heavy when air brushing and can hurt your hand. Lighter discs are fun for brushing in a light wind but more difficult to center delay.
For spray, I am not super picky. Any food grade silicon will do. Some folks like Krylon brand but I have a hard time finding it. Ace brand is pretty good too.
For the self throw, it is easier to get a two handed throw perfectly flat which makes it easier to practice center delay. However, you can get more spin with a one hand throw. More spin helps practicing more intricate tricks. Once I mastered the center delay I found I rarely used the two hand throw except for variety.
One thing to be aware of is the direction of the spin. I’ve seen many beginners throw counter spin when doing two hand and then clock spin when doing one hand. Spin awareness is key…intentionally throw yourself the one you want to practice.
Cool! Thanks for the helpful info. I used to have the center delay down pretty well, but never really tried doing anything but the easiest tricks. Trying to get back into it, and encouraging my son to do the same.
The amount of spin you folks can put on a frisbee amazes me…I suppose that has a bit to do with practice and experience.
Possess an extraordinary responsibility.
I feel it is one of the most exciting moments of my life, to enjoy and learn from all this watching jammers World Championship from Medellin. A big hug to all!! And do not stop Turn !!!
I have the Sony HDR-PJ540, and I am extremely new to live streaming. First, thank you for letting me know Sony says it cant be done with this camera, and for finding a way to do it. would it be possible for you to give me a list of devices, cables, etc. that I would need to live stream with this camera. thanks
I use a short micro HDMI to HDMI cable. This came with the camera. If I want to go longer I add an unpowered HDMI amplifier / coupler and then use a long (up to 50 ft) HDMI cable. I tried longer cables and never got a reliable signal.
Out from there is a thunderbolt cable to a Macbook Pro.
In the Macbook I use Wirecast for broadcasting. There’s a great software called Black Syphon. I use this to test the video signal. There’s also OBS, a free broadcasting software. I have used it, and it’s nice for free software but I really love Wirecast.
Here’s another tip. The Blackmagic Intensity will not autodetect the HDMI signal resolution. So, set the camera to exactly what you want. I use 720p. Now, you have to figure out the frame rate. A camera for the USA (like mine) will send 59.95fps. European cameras usually send 50fps. So in your capture software you have match…so i set Wirecast to capture at 720p@59.95. This is where black syphon helps. You can quick cycle through every possible option until you find a match. Then close it and setup wirecast.
Last tip. Even though thunderbolt is supposed to be plug and play, I find the I have to power on with the devices plugged in or they may not work. If they get unplugged (or crash for some reason) I will reboot to get things working again.
the major question I get while explaining the Nail Delay is: How I do get back to the center, after my finger is in the rim? (Stage 6)
It would be very helpfull to get a detailed explanation how it works: Track of the finger, body movement, taking a flying disc with angle directly to the centerdelay without going in the rim.
This throw is the best to start when you are learning the delay, because you get the disc over your head, so you can see the bottom of the disc. That makes it easier to focus the center when you try to do the nail delay!
Also a disc design with an empty circle in the middle is helpfull to get a visual border for your finger.
Sub, is short for speeded up delivery and just as a side note a mac is short for mid air collision, often ultimate players confuse brushing with with the term.
Yes that’s the part I was talking about, it’s been a while since I watched it, only just got volume2 so been working on/with stuff in that. My understanding has always been sub’s are in the realm of throwing manipulations where as Mac’s are in flight manipulations.
I wrote a pretty complete article about attitude change in Frisbee World (Jan/Feb) 1978 (the Sammy Schatz cover). The piece described the early development of skipping off of body surfaces (which I had first seen done by Juna Bodá. This was always done on the underside of the disc. In about ’74, at Rutgers, we started experimenting with top work and calling the technique a MAC, for Midflight Attitude Correction. I think that I first showed it in competition at Octad 77, playing with the the magnificent Mutant from Modesto, Andy Yates. It was a big hit.
The article in ’78 featured some cool pictures of Freddie Haft and me playing on the beach. The article also discussed some of the fun and challenging variations from constricted positions. What I’ve always enjoyed most about the MAC is how well you can tailor a flight for your playing partner. In particular, once you get the hang of it (a very light touch is often enough) you can vary your contact point to curve the resulting flight as well as adjusting the attack angle. A real challenge is using a reverse position MAC to create a skip flight by pushing the nose of the disc down. This usually requires a very smooth playing surface, like in a gym. I know that I said that it’s a light touch move, but the MOST fun is to deal with a red hot screamer shot that is very close to the ground. If you bang it hard and at just the right spot, the disc noses right up into the wind and hovers over your receiver. Not much more fun to be had than that. The MAC line has long been a popular game with 5 to 10 players lined up, each trying to slightly adjust the disc. This game also has been a part of ultimate sidellne play for quite a while. It’s fun to know that the move is still being explored and enjoyed. Thanks for highlighting it, Paul.
Wow, thanks Stork for all the detail. I wonder if someone can find a copy of that article. Maybe all those old Frisbee Worlds should be put online.
Anyhow, I have been experimenting with a top touch MAC as well. I use it in a strong beach wind. I brush the disc into to the wind too steep on purpose. As the disc blows back and tries to escape, I try to find just the right place, pressure, and body part to touch it to nose it down and make it sit for me again. Every so often I do it just right with my nail so the touch can be extended into a micro top side delay.
Greetings!
I’ve loved frisbees my entire (54 year) life. Dabbled with a few tricks as a teenager. Have not been playing for about 30 years but am picking it up again. So I’m a novice, but I’m very excited to learn about serious (and fun!) Freestyle. Just wanted to say thank you for making all this incredible info available!
Since this is clock spin, it seems difficult to learn the nail delay on the right hand as he shows. So far I have learned to nail delay clock spin with my left hand but have not yet learned to delay using my right with this spin.
I have heard a theory that it is easier to learn clock on the left and counter on the right. However, I learned clock on the right first. I think being right handed, I focused on that first. I still have more control on my right than my left. My guess is everyone is different and more than anything, it just takes practice.
Somtimes I am catching the phlaud with the head at the same side where I am catching to have a better focus. Is the head position part of the phlaud definition?
I think head position is part of the definition. I polled the 3 other jammers who happen to be in the room with me now and there’s a 50/50 split. Certainly head position changes the difficulty level. It’s a blind catch if you are looking around your body, while not if you are looking on the same side as your hand. I’d be very curious to hear other people’s opinions.
Traditionally Phlaud is caught blind. This would require the head to look around the opposite side of the legs as the catch. However, this is freestyle and both would mostly likely pass as a Phlaud, but learning to catch it blind will help in the long run. At higher levels of competition, catching a blind Phlaud should result in a higher score than a non-blind Phlaud.
I love the explanation! And, adding a web-name that folks can understand more who are not yet enculturated to the concept of Hein makes total sense. Thanks for doing this Jake!
I think part of what the Beast is referring to is the current lack of the flight of the disc. People love to watch it fly. Exchanges , lots of exchanges , like the Coloradicals also keeps them interested. When some one does a complicated take and indie you can see people losing interest in watching , is it like jerking off? Well maybe that’s going too far. I do notice that casual watchers of jams treat catches like drops as far as their interest goes, it is over, they move on. Play by play , web casting are the future of the sport. But you need the right personalities. I only got into watching the LA Lakers because of Chick Hern, we all have our fav broadcasters. Crazy John Brooks does a phenomenal job of announcing the Disc Golf events. So there is room for the technical but it needs to be hyped and explained. The current system does not reward different approaches to the disc because every 15 sec you are supposed to put down a difficulty score. This leaves out extended quick catch or piddling, etc. Let’s make it more alternative, goofier, more fun to watch with different takes on what to do with the disc.
Good thoughts. I agree with your assertion about commentary. For AFO 2014 I wanted to add commentary to the webcast. I got pushback from people I asked to do it and others attending the event. As a player and fan, I understand that having someone talk over a routine can take away from experiencing how they match their moves with the music. But for anyone who isn’t yet a fan, they need to be talked into it. My experience with UFC was the same as yours with the lakers. Watching people beat on each other was not that interesting to me until I heard Joe Rogan explain the strategy, different positions, etc. Now as a UFC fan, I have a huge respect for what the fighters are doing, but it’s only because Joe explained it to me.
It’s true, when people come as a visitor to a tournament, even if they take a disc and play that weekend, they usually don’t start playing right away. It’s like others said, you need to take time for them, also expressing that they are really welcome and give them a reliable option to come again and learn with experianced players.
But the size of audience is still very important for the growth and here is why:
Karlsruhe was mentioned as a place where many newcomers are born. Yes, they provide the option to come to a course and if anybody stopps and watches at a jam, they get inolved somehow immediately.
BUT: It took us years in Karlsruhe, already back in the days when I was still living there, to play shows, give workshops and promote the sport for free to publicize that this sport is existing, what it is about and that there is a way to easily participate. We offered a course like 6 or 7 years ago and almost nobody was interested. After many years of public relations and successfull tournaments the growth has just started a few years ago.
It is a long way but the resonance to teaching offers is directly connected to the publicity in the certain region. And this is why bigger audience is important to grow the sport.
Beside it pushes you to give everything in a routine and turns on the vibe. At some tournaments it’s already quite nice, usually when a freestyle event happens together with ultimate and the schedule allows them to watch us. For example Paganello, Spirit Camp, Sandslash. But also well organized and promoted tournaments like FPAW 2015.
Obviously not all jammers want that or care for it.
And for myself, I wouldn’t give away a style of play or a favoured judging category only to attract audience. I think we are a small community and we are also playing for exactly this community. And we can only play the way the way we like it to keep expressing freestyle with the necessary charisma. And if we can attract audience with it, perfect.
So do I want to change the tournaments game, where it is actually about figuring out who can do AI AND DIFF AND EX? No.
Would I change the game at a show where it is for spectators only? Absolutely!
We always took the competitions to the crowds, whether it was the Toronto Islands or Kitsilano Beach in Vancouver, there would always be big crowds with nothing to do just waiting for something to happen. The exception to this was the Santa Cruz Tournaments and the WFC where people would actually come to a stadium to see the event but in both of those events there would have to be a tremendous amount of advance promotion and publicity. If you’re not ready to do that much work, then you should look for a ready-made crowd for your event. Players can find an empty field to go play freestyle in anytime they want, if you’re putting on a competition and asking players to take the time and travel expense to come, you owe it to them to make it great. Having spectators isn’t everything but being able to show and share your passion with new people can be as much fun as the competition.
To make the sport more popular you will need to make the activity less about technical difficulty and more about flight of the disc and beautiful movement. The system of judging plays a significant role. Look at figure skating. It has become a contest to see who can spin around the most and land on their skates. I am amazed at the development of freestyle and I love how it has developed over the past 40 years. If judging rewards the advancement of play in a particular direction, most competitors will follow that direction. Imagine the educational process necessary to ensure the audience understood the added difficulty of against the spin. Freestyle is one of the few sports that is not following the line that has already been traced. That is what is truly beautiful.
Hey gang, great to see this conversation happening. It’s much needed. Nice goin, John Anthony, you’re preaching to my choir. What hooked me on frisbee watch watching 2 guys from 3 stories up skip the disc on both of the outside bounce points from the direct path between them. It blew my mind. I went and tried it myself and threw the dang thing over the fence and off the roof, down into the street. That was it for me.
And when Donnie Rhodes and I did halftime Knicks shows at Madison Square Garden and for the New Jersey Nets (dunno what exit), the crowd didn’t care anywhere as much about our technically difficult freestyle moves as they did tbd half court baskets we sunk. They went all batsplatforthat.
I fought tooth and nail against Krae’s DiscDance vision even while I was a part of it, lucky dog that I was, and he had it right: if you want an audience, you have to entertain them. To entertain someone, you have to focus on them, not you. Of course to be able to do that, you have to have some chops, but you get those down do you can forget them. I’ll never be able to do the things that the best players can do now, nor was I able to do them when I was at the top of my game. I never really had the skills. What I had (still got it!) was energy. Presence. Perform-ability. I could get “hot”, and the pressure of competition made me hotter. I never executed my stuff as well in demos as I was able to complete things in competition. If you watch video of me and really analyze if you’ll see that I never really did a whole lot. It used to really disappoint me when I would see what I actually wasn’t capable of. Yet I was popular. I don’t know how much of that would help me win events today, even if I had my game back (working on getting a new one!). I kinda doubt it. But I definitely wouldn’t invest a whole lot of time (or dime!) to play for the audiences that the sport attracts today.
But imnsho, and where I’m putting my energy, is on the bigger picture, as I see it. It’s this. Besides the fact that the sport itself isn’t particularly attractive to people because they don’t understand it and the stuff that gets most of the attention of modern players is not geared towards the spectacle itself, flight, emotion, speed, movement…nor do most players have the time or resources to develop themselves as performance / movement artists to the degree that their (theoretical) peers / counterparts do (because really, though it sucks to be a waiter (actor, dancer, writer) or other kind of starving artist, at least the potential payoff might possibly be worth it…the reason nobody cares about what we do is that…nobody cares about what we do. Frisbee is irrelevant in the world.
Also troubling is that the good majority of players are over 50. Let’s face it, Freestyle is great, but it is sadly not even as popular as juggling or yo-yo competitions. Ultimate, and to some extent golf, are the future of disc sports.
Sorry Jake, you’re just wrong. There are still way too many grey-haired competitors and finalists at major freestyle tournaments. that’s just embarrassing. But the real embarrassment is the growth rate of this sport for the last 30 years which is probably negative or flat at best. Compare this now to Ultimate which has grown exponentially and will soon become an Olympic sport. Freestyle is akin to juggling or yo-yo and truth is it is even less appealing to the masses. For those of us who appreciate freestyle, it is truly wonderful so that’s great. Unfortunately it is a niche hobby/sport that will never take off.
Not sure what you define as “too many” or “embarrassing”. Looking at the most recent open rankings: http://www.freestyledisc.org/fpa-open-rankings-update-february-2017/ 6 of the top 30 are over 50. Personally, it motivate me to still be shredding in my 50s. I’d also guess that in 2 years that number shrinks. In terms of growth over 30 years, I would love to see some stats. I was not a part of the sport in 1987, but I can say that when I started in 1995 through 2003 there was very little growth. I had met everyone there was to meet about 3 years in. Then something changed and growth exploded. Not in the USA, but in Europe. It’s still growing. Every event I attend outside the USA I meet new players. It’s not because I’ve never been there before, it’s because there are new players starting to jam. The bottom line for me is that I believe it can and will grow. Where it grows to, I don’t know. But I will keep putting in the effort.
Bravo Jake! I think crowds are great. Look at the 2015 FPA worlds in Karlsruhe – how fun was that playing in front of a big crowd.. Paganello also has big crowds every year. They love it -the idea of bringing freestyle to where the crowds already are is a good one…festivals, action sports events like NASS, etc
Walking to class in the early 80s at the University of Vermont…
Saw three students out in one of the common areas throwing a disc…
One guy “caught” a soft throw directly into a delay and then proceeded to hold that delay as he took the disc down low, behind his back (almost between his legs) and then tapped the disc through his legs and back into the air (disc now in front of him again). He then regained control of the disc by putting it into another delay…finally catching it and immediately making a beautiful throw to the next guy in the threesome. End of story. I was hooked! 🙂
In Karlsruhe we are often playing the weaves.
We are starting with throw and catch with a longer distance over the whole gym length, so everybody is getting warmed up by running.
After that we are coming closer together and still just throw and catch.
Next step is that we play the weaves with high angle set throws that are perfect for more difficulty catches – the radius of the group is now only 2-4 meters.
Than we give some spin on the disc and also delay it. Most of the time that are some pulls that are directly shooted back. All that with the “Man in the middle” technic of the weaves..
At this point everybody knows their best positionig moving and is in the FLOW.
Maybe someone else can explain the weaves technic more detailed 😉
fun read, and I’m a believer. Because I have the ‘vice’ as middleperson of touching the disc as it goes by, sometimes to good effect, yes, but often enought exasperating my receiver. I should hoop more! Z’s, =jwt
As a freshman in college at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, there were a bunch of us who regularly played catch outside our dorms. Back then, in their disc packages Wham-O included a brochure that invited people to write Wham-O for information about starting a club. Our friend Jeff did, and the information that we got back described some of the events and suggested that we form a club. We formed the UWM Frisbee Club, which gave us access to gym time in the winter, and to a van to travel to tournaments. We structured our time together inside by freestyling (at the beginning we were just doing under the leg, or BTB catches, and a handful of throws) for a third of the time, transitioning to Guts for another third of the session, and then finishing up with a game of Ultimate. That was, ahem … 40 years ago, and I am looking forward to jamming at least twice this weekend!
I love the idea of a Freestyle Frisbee Club. I’ve been part of freestyle groups but we never thought of ourselves as a club. Do you think being a club vs just being a bunch of jammers changed the experience?
Great question. My ideal number of mob-opping colleagues is about 4-5. It also depends on how energetic the other four people would be, since more people in a highly energetic Jam… up to 6 might work well also.
My idea of an ideal jam is a power-trio. Especially when everyone’s in the zone and massive moves are performed. Love every jam size, but in my opinion, this one takes the cake.
As Lori says it depends on who is in the Jam. Also what you want out the Jam but for me I feel more connected with less jammers and more discs. Peace and Z’s
I like between 3 and 5. It all depends on energy, skillset and conditions for me. Some jams get big and are still amazing. Others are more fun if they stay smaller. What’s most important to me is that people are engaged and getting action. If there are people that are getting forced to stand around for long periods it may be time to pick up another disc.
2 is great but it’s much harder to hoop and pass and not get tired.
With 3, one person can be the “man in the middle”, hooping, adjusting, etc. I love being that person – I think “how can I be a part of this combo without ever touching the disc.”
4 is ideal to me, especially when everyone is engaged in the mob-op. 4 lets you choose, rest for a minute keep going full tilt. There are also more possibilities with 4 which keeps things feeling random and fresh.
5 is where is usually begins to feel too slow for me, though it all depends on how engaged people are in the jam.
No as the player ratings are really only competition ratings. If you had a competition tomorrow with the current top hundred players Dave Murphy would be a challenger / amateur. It would make more sense to have a open first round then split the field. Peace and Z’s
I think the descition who will play in that division should be done by the players itself. Everybody knows best if he/she is a beginner. It is dishonorable for an advanced player to compete in this division with just the goal to win.
A Challenger Division only if there are enough other players on that tournament.
A World Championships will crown the best players of the world so an beginners class is not authentic. A Juniors division is thinkable but therefore we need do more promotion of young people!
I agree that anything that brings in new and especially young players in is the goal, but i don’t think tinkering with competition formats is going to help really. Just look at the poll “How were you first introduced to Freestyle Frisbee?” only 6% of players started as a result of a competition/ tournament.
Peace and Z’s
The idea is not new to sports- just new to freestyle frisbee. A ladder that players can climb up (or in my case, maybe, climb back down after aging out of a time when I could have been competitive). It’s not about whether we know/knew we can win the challenger division, really. It’s knowing that there is a place for us to fit in with our skill sets and competitive freestyle background.
Juliana, with all her disc golf and overall titles, is still very much a novice (on the rise) in freestyle competition. For all my years of overall competition, I have only played in two freestyle-only competitions. At age 60, it doesn’t make sense to get on the field with the true pros, no matter what the prospects are of winning in a different division.
I would like to say i always do but that would not be true. We get a lot of people watching in Brighton form foreign exchange students to photography students, parents and their kids to local drunks. Obviously not all are going to get involved (i/we have had some success with the exchange students and our local drunk to be fair) so i choose my battles as it where, not that spreading the Jam is a battle, i love it.
What i always do though is if i see someone playing with a disc, is give them a Skystyler to play with, there are a lot of cheap disc’s out there that are not much fun to play with, poor tools. I then watch and gauge where they are at and will then bust their jam and give appropriate advice and positive feed back. When we are done i then tell them where to get more information on freestyle and an open invitation to join in our jams.
I think we have done well in Brighton spreading the Jam but it takes time in fact years for that new person to go form being a freshstyler to a fair weather Jammer to a hard core Jammer.
Peace and Z’s
PS Get your sign out and they will come.
Heaving outside the Student Union Field at the University of Iowa in 1979 with my roommate, then a random dude joined us, and immediately it was clear this was no longer a game of throw and catch. He threw very well, and the only catch I remember was a deflect — he caught by pinching it between his thigh and leg.
The only other thing I remember is he was a little on the heavy side, and was California. He made quite an impression on me.
Jim is our unofficial spokesman. He always stops to talk to those who are watching us. If we see the person is interested in playing, one of us always gives a disc to them. I love it when the children stop in awe and and are thrilled to play with one of our HDX’s Thanks Jim for always taking the time to spread the jam. ! For my part, I’ll offer up a disc or throw a few minutes with someone.
I would like to see more “spawn” routines rewarded as that reflects better what jamming is all about.
Playing indoors so that routines can be realized should be saved for exhibitions. Competition should be about adapting to conditions and partners as this is what we do when we jam. Competitions should reflect what the sport is all about. This would also open it up to more competitors. Not everyone lives near other top competitors so they are at a disadvantage or maybe the top person near you is already paired up, what do you do? Quit? So lets make tournaments more about including as many as possible in spontaneous formats with random pairings. This does seem to be a long way aways from where we are now but where is that? Are we really drawing in new participants? Since we are not competing for money or fame then lets reevaluate what do we want the sport to be.
The content and “touch” of a routine isn’t solely depending on whether it’s choreographed or not. You can choreograph it to look spontaneous and vice verse. It has always been the choice of players’ to perform what they like and some have had an emphasis on “goin’ for” winning tournaments. However the later choice doesn’t necesarilly lead to getting more points….winning tournaments. For instance the current judging system simplifies a.i. by using the no of co-ops to determine co-op work. Look at some of the co-op routines of WFC 1981 – Coloradicals and Rhodes/Felberbaum/Elliot and Hudoklin/Jewell/Smiths. The routines contain lot’s of co-ops and a lot of indies. Good choreography and difficulty on both. Flow, moving around, playing to the music as a whole and not “hitting” a few cues. The were mostly choreographed but it doesn’t feel like it’s limiting the experience of the performance. As a whole I think these routines are better than the winning co-op routines of today. It’s true that the competive scene was different; more players on a very high level and relatively young (<30 years old). I quote Z Weyand who often adress the issue. We need to get more people to our sport, to come out and play. It really doesn't matter (that much) who wins but we must of course have a system that we can use at tournaments. The people using it must have a general understanding of what moves/coops/other elements receive a certain score. I look forward to see all jammers competing or not: choreographing or not….
This routine was very inspiring. In fact, we listened to the podcast right after we watched the video twice, and then went to the Shores to jam with Dave Murphy for 2 hours (for the third day in a row, no less).
Anyway, back to the podcast- I learned so much about Donnie and Allen that I never knew. The Overall players of that era didn’t mix or mingle much with the freestylers, though we knew some of them.
So, thanks guys, for the great history lesson and filling in those gaps.
the parallel with donnie is amazing!except canadian version i had an extra 5 years back experience before 79.i thot evan david and corey baso won van 79 my 1st real tourney.
great interview once again! amazing to hear about the history of these two – and the amazing stories being told that so many of us weren’t aware of. this is great!
My apologies, Lars. I did not know the source of the photo. Fixed now. If anyone sees this, Lars is a wonderful photographer. Click his name to see his see his work. Lot’s of frisbee stuff, and beautiful landscape shots. You won’t be disappointed.
Jake: this is one of the best descriptions I’ve ever read about the Va States! You capture the essence of this event so nicely and accurately. If I had a transporter… I’d be there! Oh wait! I can watch the live-stream instead! It’s the next best thing…. thank you!
Thanks you guys for the great interview and providing us insights into the Spread the Jam Project videos! What a gift to our sport these videos have become! I also use various ones to show folks what freestyle disc is about. The editing and music choices used add such a beautiful aesthetic – I think the StJ videos do speak to a wider audience. It’s easy to enjoy the artistic edge that James and Ryan have put into each of the StJ videos.
Great video for a complete rookie like myself! I just wanted to say: “Greetings and Thank you!” I know it takes a lot of hard work and time to create this wonderful educational material. I started getting psyched about freestyle in the 70s as a teenager but never really got serious. Then “life” happened and I got busy with career, family etc. and never made the time to improve my skills. (Living in Vermont where there were more cows than people back in those days didn’t help either. I didn’t have access to other people who were enjoying freestyle.) Now at age 54, I’m totally pumped about putting some real effort into developing some skills before my body gets any older! LOL. So to me this educational material is priceless!
You have my deepest gratitude for sharing the joy of freestyle.
If I can put all the pieces together I’m hoping to get to Virginia this year!
’61 or ’62 off and on through college and law school. then many years mostly off, until kids got involved in overall and ultimate. I explicitly chose freestyle as my main sport in 1999. Z’s, =jwt
Born 1955, started playing Ultimate at Glassboro State when I was 18 in 1974. Started jamming after seeing Victor M, John K, Ken W, Kerry K, Doug C, New York crew, Stork & Irv at Octad ’75
You know when I was born, so no need for me to embellish on that question. I first saw freestyle in 1981 when I saw Eric Wooten freestyling on my college campus. My first competition was the 1982 Virginia States, and I did all the events including freestyle.
Born in 1973, first UTL catch summer 92. Learned the nail delay 98…took a while 😉
First tournament as a jammer in Paganello 2002.
First tournament as a competitor at the EFC Amsterdam 2005.
Born in ’66, first went out and talked to the Jammers in the park on the Labour Day weekend last year. Learned to delay in October. Seven months now for me. Good times.
Flexibility should be put into the comp manual and for FPAW, AFO, EFO, WFDF and any other “important” event. The decision should be “negotiated” between the FPA Board and TD…My sense is it should be variable by no more than 1 minute in the short term (3 and 4 minutes) so the change is not too radical. With the internet and social media, the attention span of our audience is much less than the past I am afraid.
Why not give longer routines a try.? Pre ’86 routines were 5 minutes which meant players got 3 -4 indies each. This was a big factor in motivating players to work on their games, their variety.
In other sports like tennis the major events are longer to determine a clear winner – there are five sets instead of three and they get rid of the tiebreaker so you must win by 2 games in the final set.
Most new players have never tried to compete in five minute pairs routines, it would be interesting to see how they would do. From experience I can tell you it gives you time to get into a flow without being rushed. At Frisbeer this year I got one short indy 🙁
You could also have less teams in the final like six instead of eight so that the event would not run long
Hi Jake
what are you meaning by having “deep pockets”? Is it the financial ability to travel around the world to participate in tournaments, or an unlimited amount of moves & catches?
Thanks…
That was a great interview. Thx very much!
I definitely go with Doug E Fresh’s List. Hm
For me, there has to be Lisa Hunrichs, Jakub Kostel and Gary Auerbachon on that List too. With these dudes and duderinas i have had some of the best Jamminutes in my life. Power, Passion and Grace!
Watched the freestyle semi finals live until about 11:30 PM EST. Loved it! Looking forward to seeing the rest when it’s posted for replay. The quality of the video and audio was very very good.
Many Thanks!
– Paul
First of all, great podcast — Love to hear the crusty ones insider knowledge of the old days.
Couple of thoughts…
On ‘how to attract a crowd’:
1) more gymnastic. People glom on to sports that give ’em ‘the fear factor’. Bigger air, bigger risk, more athletic. If someone were to find a real gymnast who wanted to do freestyle, it would probably take the sport in a very big new direction.
2) better timing. Its all well and good to do a bunch of difficult moves, that only insiders can tell is hard. But the human brain responds basically automatically to elegance and flow, and you did see this more, because there were fewer possibilities, in early players, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a next level. Better form would be a subset of this as well.
3) more ‘Mind=Blown’ quality. I remember watching kray at the Hampshire College gym many moons ago, and he did some combo that my brain literally couldn’t conceptualize. He moved, combined things really, in ways it had never even occurred to me were possible. Not so much ‘difficult frisbee manipulation, but unprecedented ways of going from one thing to the next. Of course Kray has the timing/elegance/flow/form thing in spades too, so it was fast, and elegant…
In general, if one is interested in attracting interest, I think too much attention is paid to ‘how hard a move is to do’, and not enough emphasis on the human doing it. There is tremendous disc manipulation technology these days, truly amazing, but a long standing trend of de-emphasizing the human body aspect of it all. The frisbee should provide counter-point to what the human is doing, not the other way around. The audience doesn’t care what the frisbee does, they care what the people do.
On ‘Tournaments are what we do’
This has been a particular sticking point for me, for a long time, and I’ve thought about it a lot. I didn’t get into freestyle from a competitive, sporty, angle. I was doing karate and meditating, and that angle has always been the way I’ve related to it. As a non-competitor, and mid level player, I’ve found it hard to have a meaningful role in the extremely competition focused world of freestyle. I say extremely because in no other sport in which I’ve participated, again at an amateur level, is there anywhere near the emphasis on tournament. Even with the frisbee world, while its certainly true that golf and ultimate have lots of tournaments, and lots of players focused on competition, there are larger numbers of people who play these sports without ever a though of entering a tournament. And it is precisely the non-tournament players who become the audience at the tournaments, who provide the interest level that grows the sport. My two cents, is that if freestyle were thought of more as ‘mind/body flow training’ and not ‘I’m the best player in the world’, one would attract a different and larger crowd of people. Most people aren’t going to win the tournament, and if you want to keep them interested, there has to be something in it for them. And I tend to think that frisbee as mind/body merging training, meditative attention, is far superior to things like tai-chi, (but not for ‘subtle body energy work’, obviously) and with a disciplined concerted focus on this idea, over time, could rival things like karate, offering as it does a challenge to fluidity, and responsiveness, and detail orientation, that martial arts rather lack.
Thank you for your thoughts on other ways to embrace and share freestyle beyond competition. One of the reasons I continue to go to competitions is so I can meet and jam with all my friends. It would be fun to have other outlets for Freestyle that are not competitive. That’s what I love about our beach weekend events.
There were several “Jam Camp” events as well. I attended the ones in California. We taught many people of all skills and ages how to Freestyle. People loved it. Another great example of Freestyle without the competition.
I also like your perspective about Freestyle as a form of meditation. For me, that is very much a part of why I jam. It gets me very in-the-moment”.
I more and more regret not going to events, because I love all the folks I know, and those I don’t, and miss seeing them. I’ve always had some money issues, and right now, have them in spades. If I could figure out how to have money, and time, I’d be at everything.
All joking aside, the competitive aspect of Freestyle has become secondary to me yet I still love to attend competitions. Two of the main reasons: First is to be with my friends. You freestylers are some of my best friends in the world. Second is to jam. I love jamming. After 22 years I still can’t get enough. Jamming with other people is inspiring; seeing new moves or new takes on old moves, seeing or helping people improve, and seeking those magic moments where the impossible becomes possible.
I have to say, beach weekend and Jam Camp were pretty amazing because there is no competition.
From a rookie perspective (mine), I think this is great. It’s a win/win. “Frisbeeguru” is easy for new folks to remember and relate to, and also makes a great “umbrella/parent” under which to put all things freestyle. But keeping “Heinsville” alive and well is (to me) very very important too. I care about the history of this sport and I want to be able to research, learn, and understand how things evolved to where they are today. Well done!
Yes, thanks for telling us about your new branding. I, too, have found myself having to explain the word Heinsville to more than a few people over the years. It’s much easier for folks to reference frisbee Guru, and it also fits with the continued progression of your website. I’ve become a great fan of the podcast, and really enjoy listening to them while I make myself dinner. Thanks for that as well.
With a whiz ring, very light wind, maybe 3-6. With a SkyStyler, I like it heavy: 9-12. Maybe even more. It would interesting to measure the speeds during different jams.
Although I knew some of what you’re describing above, I didn’t know about the tin golf game from the 1920s, nor Stork and Papa Jack’s early prowess with discs at the World’s Fair events. Thanks for posting this!
As a rookie to freestyle, I am LOVING the opportunity to start understanding this history. If I were in my teens or 20s I might not care so much (I never liked history in school). But now that I’m an old geezer in my 50s and I understand how important history is, I am cherishing these posts!
As always, THANKS for all you do Jake! I know it’s a lot of work!
Best,
Paul M Kruse
It’s so great to hear the back stories of people like Deaton! Love to know all of the histories of influential players (such as the guys who are hosting this!). Can’t wait to hear more.
Deaton is correct when he claims the spirit of competition was rather back-biting in the late 70’s – 80’s. The cliques still exist however, but the spirit of the game and support of great freestyle skills remain paramount in what I have seen over the decades. Recreational freestyle in lieu of competition brings out more goodwill and camaraderie. Perhaps this is why some great players chose the former and not the latter.
Thanks for bringing up our missing jammers: Mikka Nordmann, and Pete Rosing, (also, lost but not forgotten are: Fernando Diereto [spelling?], Diego Gamboa, G. Kirkland, Pete Laubert, Tom Gleason, and… I’m sure I missing other freestylers who once were, and are no longer with us in the flesh). I was lucky enough to hang and play with all of these fantastic players (except Pete R.) and are reminded how many wonderful people I have come to known over my 35+ years in the sport.
In addition to the benefits already listed in this article, being in excellent condition is a plus in any sport, even if that sport doesn’t provide or seem to always demand it. In sports like baseball or football, the majority of the playing time is spent just standing around. However, athletes in those sports will spend a considerable amount of time doing other activities to get into excellent condition, just for that moment, when it is needed. Most athletes in other sports will jog to stay in top shape. Freestyle will give you the excellent cardio workout that disc golf does not provide. Instead of a long run, you can get the same results and do it within a flying disc sport that at the same time will develop other flying disc benefits.
Ken Climo 12-time Disc Golf World Champion obviously hasn’t spent all of his time on the disc golf course. Just coincidence? https://youtu.be/ZBrxvZmq24g
Disc golf helped my freestyle game because the parking lot of the disc golf course is where I learned to freestyle! It’s a great activity to do while you’re waiting for your friends to show up (putting practice is also a good activity, but not as fun), and fun to do with your friends after the round. I will forever be grateful to Shayne Soble for introducing me to Freestyle. If he hadn’t been running across the parking lot doing a series of chest rolls and kick brushes, I would have never gotten the bug. He showed me the nail delay, and that was that. Long story short, disc golf can help freestyle through exposure to the sport.
In disc golf I’ve learned that you need to bring your energy into focus on every shot while slowing down your breath (especially to putt accurately). This definitely translates for being in the proper state of mind prior to and throughout a competitive freestyle routine. Even though freestyle is creative and reactive in nature (especially when recreationally and cooperatively playing among other freestylers), you still have to have a laser focus to execute your cooperative combinations as well as your individual moves accurately.
What I love about both sports, is that they both require enough practice and competitive participation in order to learn how to perfect your mental edge so that you can execute your optimum physical talents at the right time.
As a complete rookie at freestyle, for me personally, commentary would add a bit of excitement. Most importantly it would provide me with education.
However with respect to all you experts out there who are used to the current format I do not feel this is totally necessary as I can l figure things out by replaying the video.
If there was commentary, I wouldn’t want it to overwhelm the “art” in progress so my suggestion would be just a small amount of commentary. A reasonable analogy might be what we hear for commentary when watching a figure skating competition on national television.
I like the commentary for the livestream but NOT live. Live commentary would affect judging and the play on the field….unless you could charge for headphones for audience members and do some kind of local wireless feed.
I think some type of commentary during a freestyle routine would be helpful for those who are not aware of what they’re watching. This is how we can get more people knowledgeable about some of the tricks that freestylers are executing. I agree that commentators should be positioned away from the judges so as to not distract from that process.
Been wishing there were vids with commentary for quite a while, voted an enthusiastic yes! Perhaps there could be voiceover & no VO versions posted, or a CC option for those who prefer to view them au naturale… 😉
Ahh, previous one is posted under the wrong subject due to my ineptness. The videos are most welcome, and the quality has been steadily improving. A line feed of the music used would be the icing on the cake, but there may be copyright issues?
Been wishing there were vids with commentary for quite a while, voted an enthusiastic yes! Perhaps there could be voiceover & no VO versions posted, or a CC option for those who prefer to view them au naturale… 😉
I love the pink discs.
I asked Discraft if they can produce it again.
They answerd that they will setup a new SkyStyler color if someone will place an order over 10000 discs.
I haven’t seriously jammed in quite some time but was serious about it in the ’80’s. I preferred a Whamo High Rigidity for durability reasons but the Sky Stylers were really sweet to play with too! I found yellow to be really durable color but my favorite was the semi translucent clear plastic. I used to have one with a purple band and a white center design,so nice!
Great to see you on the site. When I was at AFO, James had a High Rig. We meant to play with it but never go to it. Hopefully I’ll get another chance. I also really like the HDX Super Pro model. I have one I break out from time to time.
In 2004 or 2005, JT Thorne was working on a z measuring device and showed it to Pat Marron and me. My fastest was with my UD underhand. Can’t remember what Pat’s best throw was, but his z’s were more than mine.
Another great conversation. I was nodding my head about Donnie’s comments about judging, mainly because… I’ve never really been able to evaluate other people’s play on anything other than an intuitive level.
One thought I’ve had about judging is to leverage modern technology…
Instead of judging as the play proceeds, have 4 to 8 cameras, maybe some up in the air on poles (or really techno mounted on drones 🙂 ) then (and this is the main point) do the judging after. from the recordings.
Advantages:
1) people could talk about what they are seeing — this would tend to spread knowledge and understanding to others
2) recording could be stopped and replayed — less chance of missing something
3) multiple angles — less chance of missing something
4) order of play becomes less of a factor. equalizes the playing field.
5) group activity — more cohesion.
6) Everybody gets the same judges. Nobody misses out on judging by virtue of playing, and conversely, nobody misses out on playing by virtue of judging.
7) might simplify the actual play experience. No more corralling judges, less stress about the details of the tournament so more focus on play.
Disadvantages:
1) it would kind of have to be a consistent camera setup, or at least above a certain threshold. So some kind of standardization process seems like it would be necessary
2) cost. Not anywhere near as bad as it used to be. obviously.
3) need tech savy people to set up rig. Could build up a standard ‘how to’ document.
Lol.. in the early 80’s I met John Kirkland in his ugly Lee nails period. Being lefty, he saw me throwing backhand counter zzz’s in Rochester and asked me to throw him some for jamming. He told me, “you currrently throw the fastest counter zzz’s on the planet and I know!”… nicest thing he ever said to me!- Paul Brenner
For any camera nerds out there, I shot the routines on a new Sony A7Sii in SLog2 format. This makes the picture quality amazing but requires more effort in post processing. This event was a practice session for me with the new camera setup.
I chose “Other” because the flat sole (no pronounced difference between the height of the heel and sole) is most important so that you’re not accidentally rolling your ankle. My favorite shoes are either volleyball or tennis shoes.
I am interrested which type of nails the most players wear?
Heinnails, Yarnails, Alinails, Tobynails, Shellworthnails, Krazygluenails, Bonenails, Selfmade nails… what else? Would be nice if you can make a poll 😉
Hey, Laurent. Welcome to Frisbeeguru! Below a is a long answer from what I know. My question for you is, how do you make your nails?
The list is various nails that are made and sold (or given away) by different jammers. Hein Nails (made by Matt Gauthier) and Yarnails (Made by Dan Yarnell) are made from dental acrylic. They are very hard and durable. Hein Nails come from molds so there are different, consistent sizes. Yarnails are made individually and so have more variation but also more art…colors and designs.
Alinails and Toby nails are made by ALi and Toby. I don’t know how they do it. Maybe they can comment.
I’ve not heard of Shellworthnails but my guess is they are made from sea shells. Lou Sommeral makes Bonenails, which are carved from bones. They are very nice and glue on well. However, I think the Hein nails spin a little longer.
Krazygluenails would be ones made from Krazy Glue tubes. Players cut them out from the tube. Many years ago, this was the primary nail in use.
Another possible one are manicure nails, where people go into a nail salon and get fake nails that are extra thick. Lori Daniels and Paul Kenny are two who do this.
Self made would be any that don’t fit the categories above.
I used to glue on fake nails and leave them on, but they were kind of a conversation starter at work – “What’s with your nails?” Then I saw some players like Kenny and Scannell who had solon nails done and decided that was the way to go. I have them all done, even though, don’t use them all. Advantages: no nail kit, no setup / take-off time for each jam, never losing a nail, and you’re always ready to play. It makes it much easier to play everyday, as freestyle becomes a lifestyle!
Hi Jake!
I’m sure I’m speaking for many people when I say THANK YOU for your hard work keeping “us Freestyle fans” up-to-date on tournament results! And I’m sure you’re doing a ton more stuff behind the scenes that we don’t know about!
Thanks Brother!
Paul Kruse
A.k.a. “Wheelman”
A.k.a. “The Flying Lizard”
Vermont USA
Randy, Jake and Carolyn, Thanks for Shootin’ the Frizbreeze with me. It was great traveling through memory lane. The freestyle family will always hold a special place in my heart.
“Toby nails”, or as i like to call them: “glastic nails”, are made of polycarbonate (a very hard type of plastic, the same which CDs are made of). They are not molded, but cut by hand out of industrially made tubes of different diameters, leading to different curvatures. So it is similar to the krazy glue tube technique, only with mich harder material. They make a clinking sound like glass when they fall on a surface, hence the name.
“Shellworth Nails”, refers to the nails made by Philipp Scherworth. These are made from cellulose acetate, a material which is produced out of natural cellulose fibers and acetic acid. This material is also used to make frames for eyeglasses. It can be bought as plates, cut to form and bent under heat to obtain different curvatures.
other organic materials that i know have been used is epoxy resin and nylon (Udo), and PTFE, also known as Teflon (Toby).
I heard that there are also experiments with inorganic materials. Dan Yarnell hat made some ceramic nails, i have seen James play with them.
This is so helpful Ryan. I’m terrible with back rolls, it’s a hit or miss with me. When it does happen, I’m never sure why it happened but knowing what the legs need to do makes sense. I also have been told that using your thumb to help guide the disc towards your palm helps too.
Ditto to what Stacy wrote. Thanks for asking us to be guests on your very cool pod cast. It was so fun to talk about our frisbee days together, seems like we just scratched the surface. It was a magical and special time in my life. I don’t know how I got so LUCKY to find frisbee and meet all these amazing wonderful people, who are still part of my life. Good stuff. Good memories. Love you guys, keep up the great work.
Swedish plastic. The PVC material used in electrical installation pipes in Sweden is extremely suitable for making nails. It is easily shaped, and polishes to a mirror surface almost instantly, using just a notebook. An eight foot pipe of 3/4″ diameter is about five bucks and truly lasts a lifetime. Additionally this plastic is hard but impossible tp crack at jamming temperatures. Strongly recommended. Grab me at any meet amd I will give you a handful.
Hein Nails are the best! I used the Swedish plastic from Åke for many years before Matt Gauthier began making custom nails. Now, I use exclusively Hein Nails, of course. 🙂 The Swedish plastic is great, but I will say that it does eventually wear down, which does not seem to be the case with Hein Nails which last forever! Also, it’s a lot of work to create nails from the Swedish plastic. First you cut them out (you need really strong tools) and then you need to do a lot of filing to get them just right, but once completed it is worth it, and they last a very nice long time.
My challenge is when I see my friend jamming I lose all self control and HAVE TO JAM NOW. So, I only warm up if I arrive early or am already exhausted. Actually, I will say that in Portland we all speed flow for 10-15 before throwing ZZZs.
Great explanation and breakdown of the body movements. This has been an inconsistent move for me for many years. With this information – I’m hopeful that I’ll succeed more frequently. Thanks for making this video!
That was excellent, reminded me of the Warriors movie, the Frisbee gangs of New York with their urban territories and pecking order. It’s great that you guy’s are getting these stories documented for the future generations.
maybe for stats, it would also be nice to have a poll intending clock for right handed and counter for left handend throws compared to another poll intending counter for right handed and clock and left handed trhows.
I always try to avoid to bring slick on the outer rim (slope of morrison), because you need the grip for the throw and the catch.
But I usually put some slick on the edge of the rim, so you have less friction at doing [cuffs] (http://www.frisbeeguru.com/tag/cuff).
I do this only by using a slicked rag. Don’t spray it directy to the edge of the disc, because that you get slick on the outer rim 😉
from fb post: I used to slick the crazy glue tube carved nails. Before the newest rings, I would occasionally slick the under of them. Discs: the newbie1 oops is to not slick the top, newbie2 is to slick the gripping area….? Having a blaZt in Milano. The Museo nello Tempio is fantastiico! Z’s,=jwt
There are 2 basic cranks. There are 2 spins. There’s with the spin and against the spin. So, 2x2x2 = 8.
The first basic crank: palm up center delay in front. Then push your elbow out and rotate the disc under your arm pit into an invert delay. Now, continue the crank by lifting your hand up while turning your wrist so that palm is pointed forward. Then bring your hand back down to a palm up center delay. This can be done with either hand, either spin, for a total of 4 possible combinations.
The second basic crank is the opposite motion of the first: pa,m up center delay. Lift your hand up and rotate your wrist so your palm to faces forward. Then continue the wrist rotation and move to an inverted delay. Finally rotate the disc under your armpit from the outside in and return to a palm up center delay. Again, this can be done with either hand and either spin for 4 more possible combinations.
imo, exzellent video explanation of body form elements of the gitis ‘move’, leading, when judging, right to a higher number in the AI form’s column, titled Form! I am a relative huncher too, and I’ll be thinking about core and straightening my legs in a flying gitis. Next: how to make a good phlaud form: hmmm my non-catching arm is always down, not up or out. Help?
The whole disc. Inside the rim. I really make sure the rim is smooth as the smoothest surface known to a man. Yes. Silky Smooth! I sand the disc almost everyday. 2 Grits. 1500 pad and then 2400.
Thanks for this interview! You two are/were an inspiration to jammers alike. I’m very thankful to have played with and against both of you. You elevated my game and for that, I will forever be appreciative.
Keep these episodes coming guys. It’s so refreshing getting everyone’s view of freestyle and the history of their own, or other’s development in the sport. I love that it’s also recorded for posterity! By the way, you’re both “off the hook”!
I am asking myself if the prefered body spinning direction depends on the disc spinning direction!?
Like:
Clock players spinning counterwise.
Couter players spinning clockwise?
Here’s a possible explanation. The most common set to a spinning catch with clock is right hand pull under the outside left leg into the set. The motion of the leg and arm already has the body moving counter clockwise. Momentum from this set makes counter clockwise spinning easier.
However, I was watching Arthur do spinning catches a few weeks ago. Instead of pulling out and up, he did a right handed shoot across his chest and spun clockwise. I tried it and discovered that I could make a very consistent set and my momentum propelled me to spin clockwise.
Perhaps there’s a series of articles or videos about various sets that lead into spinning moves.
My feelings are, that it has nothing to do with the spin of the disc. When I give myself a counter set, I like to spin counterwise more likely as well as with clock Zs.
When I skate, I do it goofy. To do that I have to do 90 degrees counterclockwise spin…
When I do a drift with my bike, I do it counterclockwise…
I think my inner spin is counterclockwise.
But why do I do my osis catches clockwise…? Hm 🙂
because osis is a different feeling. its like the “against” of spin directions. also, you can then cath it with the same hand and under the same leg that you are used to. that makes total sense, that you spin osis in the other direction.
when i started, i always thought it is clear that with a clockwise disc, one should sbin counter, and with a counter disc, one should spin clockwise. For one, the set is easiest (non cross-chest set, right hand with clock, left hand with counter), and also, that way, the body and the disc are like two gear wheels, gripping into each other. for rolling and brushing, it is much easier to spin the other way than the disc is spinning because at the contact point between body and disc, both objects move in the same direction (gear wheel concept).
for me as a more counter player, it still feels better to spin counter, no matter what spin the disc has. so i always thought i was doing something wrong. but now i have noticed, that almos al clock pplayers spin counter, but many counter players spin counter as well. So i guess it is some sort of preference in the body, maybe like right handedness.
My body naturally spins left. I prefer counter throws. When I set the disc for a spinning catch, it’s left handed pull behind the back or under the leg set and go. But off a counter roll, you should spin right, to go with the movement and that’s always been a challenge because I’m not very good at spinning my body to the right. Goals!
Thanks! That was from our last annual DDC tournament in Germany, it was really wonderful this year – perfect condition, pretty high level of play, lots of fun!
Good chances that many of us will be at an overall event.
chuckle poll question: how many times have you dived into water for a disc? Alt chuckle question: how many times have you climbed up onto a roof to retrieve one? ‘Who threw it gets it!’ Z’s, =jwt
I love the Deuter trans alpine 30. It’s basically a regular backpack but it comes with adjustable straps usually used for bike helmets and it holds up to 4 disks perfectly. I saw Benno with it first and got inspired. 🙂
A good definition fror “Nar” is: Where the combination of synergy and schism of freestyle disc tricks between partnership bears out something creatively expressive for an audience to behold.
Joey has a great ability to describe the ancient history of all things freestyle. It is an incredible fact that many frisbee players believed (and still believe) that frisbee can change the world. The element that makes frisbee activity different is the invention of things (games?) to play with the object. Freestyle is the jazz and the players are the jammers.
Dead Head here (from Jorma’s blog). No, I’m not stalking you; just searching for another avenue to communicate since “Cracks in the Finish” seems doomed and, frankly, absurd. Without further ado, let me know if this is acceptable.
I am now a full time listener for your pod casts and as newbie to the game, may I say how useful and informative these podcasts are.
This one in particular, hearing about his journey is incredible and I am a very jealous disc’er.
Can’t wait to join you all in Prague and start my own journey. Thank you Jake and Randy for giving me yet another avenue to improve. The Jamily is so strong, even more so than other disc sports. So grateful to be a new brother.
Hi Jake,
I just happened to be awake at 3 AM EST and I saw this post arrive.
Just wanted to say (as I have said before, but it’s been a while):
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO FOR THE WORLD OF FREESTYLE!
You work at it tirelessly, and clearly with great passion.
It is appreciated beyond words brother!
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy Holidays to you and your family!!
Very fun write up by Jim palmeri! Felt like I was in the audience with him, this was so we’ll described. Wish we could see the entire show. Thanks for posting this!
This is tough to answer for most folks. I would call this the core value in creating a “Flow Chart.”
Too many drops = No Flow
The best of The Best (like you Jake) will have high percentage Jams most of the time and yet have the dreaded Roberto Duran (Manos de Piedra) Syndrome hit on occasion. For myself, I try to simplify as a reset, then increase in difficulty until Flow is back.
Ever watch the dart championships? Talk about repetitive, no one cares what the audience thinks. The audience is there to watch the sport as presented. We decide what the sport is, no audience pandering.
I agree long routines require more skills, but what players want deep down is to be watched and appreciated. Adding turbo shred is amusing and shows one aspect of play, because there are no throws. Are we looking to grow the sport? Looking to push the limits for the best players seems very short term. There is now enough laid down to master that the sport is finally defined and displayed as art. I love to watch Randy roll, but Murphs rolls are completely different and it seems silly to choose Monet over Picasso and say that’s the best.
I agree that when the flow in a jam seems to be negatively impacted by a lot of drops, then “resetting” (so to speak) with simpler catches to boost up the rhythm of the flow is a good call. Great method to get the connections going again and keeping everyone involved in the disc movement between players.
Few life experiences can be compared to my first major show….basketball halftime show for the Seattle NBA SuperSonics.
My partner, Ralph Williamson, and I had done a few community college basketball halftime shows as practice for this Dec. 26th 1975 show. But most community college games had an attendance of a few dozen to a couple hundred, a stratosphere of difference when walking onto the hard court floors that seemed to still be electrified by the collective energy of the NBA giants and intensified by the 14,000 plus in the stands.
I remember feeling a significant amount of fear and pride at taking our special style of disc play to “the masses”, not only was it important we do our best for the thousands of NBA fans but I recall feeling excited to showcase how the “toy” Frisbee, if played with a degree of athleticism, can be viewed as a sport to the sport media.
That show changed my life and changed how many in the Seattle area came to view disc play. The buzz was palpable from the crowd, we booked three shows before we left courtside. It launched a full time show schedule that lasted the better part of three years.
I continued to do shows, on and off, for over two decades. No demo was more impactful on my life than that December night in 1975.
December 12, 1974 Madison Square Garden. Half time Nicks game. Threw a full court basket which I never expected to make. With Krae Van Sicle, Carl Baker, Peter Bloem, David Perell, Roger Fox and myself (“Circus”).
My first was in Belgium in 1969 at a soccer game. Solo. They had seen very few discs then, if ever. What a rush. Mostly MTAs, TRCs, Distance demo and a little very rudimentary solo freestyle.
I would associate that sound first with a Super-Pro, and then with any other of the original G-series discs- especially the 80-mold. Well ahead of the SkyStyler era.
I am one of the lucky guys to have met my wife, the jammergirl of my dreams, at a frisbee tournament – the 1984 Santa Cruz Championships!
She coyly asked if I “would show her how to throw MTA” and I stepped right in. I later found out she had been playing ultimate on the first womens Condor team since the ’70’s. She started jamming with us about 4 years ago and has picked up our small disc wind game like a natural. We jam wherever we go (mainly the beach)and it has been a great way to stay in shape and connected. We love our Jamily and invite you all to come PLAY!
Your Jam Is Waiting 🙂
Oh there’s not enough space and time here right now to share my family frisbee stories; I have tons of ’em. My dad and I played throw’n’catch with a PlutoPlatter in a rose garden in about 1961. And other times. My brothers and I played in the ’60s and ’70’s. ZXVRQ and I played lots when they were ‘just kids,’ and now look at ’em. Do they freestyle still? Yes but not often enough! ….I have a bunch of cousins who are playing Ulti, including some near cousins and my distant cousins famous Max and Alex Thorne. Proud of all this, and it makes me happy. Z’s, =jwt
My kid, Grant, played Ultimate in college, at Brown University. They went to college Nationals 3x in his 4 years.
My girlfriend, Juliana K, has some kind of accolades of some sort, I think. I’d need to check the records.
It’s great to have results in real time, and see one team play after the other almost 1 minute later, it looks very professional.
I really think that who won deserved it, so even if I didn’t know how this judging system works, I think it was fair.
Thanks for what you do!
I don’t know when Randy played in his first tourney, but I do remember that he hit me in the forehead with a drive on the golf course in Seattle in 1979. Fortunately, that was before the era of beveled edge discs, so getting hit by a golf disc wasn’t fatal at 50 meters from the tee pad.
Thanks again, Randy! Nice to meet ya!
Speaking of disc improvements, I feel it’s time for an upgrade from the Sky Styler.
In case anyone hasn’t noticed, it’s over stable. It is always curving hyzer in its flight path. I don’t recall the early Sky Stylers flying like that, but I could be wrong.
However, a Freestyle disc that flies true to it’s release point would be quite a welcome thing to this Jammer.
Great to hear from JK, who brought the sport of frisbee to the world. After Whamo purchased CPI, they changed the plastic and the formerly indestructible CPI disc broke in the cold New York air. Many people saw how the frisbee could be a sport based item but JK did so much to promote that concept.
Appendix: after a couple more years of experience, it is recommended to use a nail-polish block to shine your own nail (until really shiny). That way there is no need for any isopropanol. It’s very fast, more effective and less chemicals on your nails. It holds days, but can still be taken off without harming your own nail (as it can occur with super glue). Perfect for beginners and pros in my opinion. Please share your experience!
Very useful commentary here abut playing left of the wind for clock and right for counter: Tommy taught me this a while back, a windy Paganello, as I recall (where he also helped me get some needed first aid for a temple disc hit). Thank you Tom Leitner, via Joey, I guess. Also, further OT, but dear for me: I met and hindsight wow jammed with both Joey and Richie in Santa Cruz a decade and a half ago, treasured. Joey reinforced to me Randy’s Seattle message to learn both spins, complimenting me that he could see I was working on them (and reinforcing my any spin any angle aspirations, to be able to play with anybody). I had never seen such smooth consecutivity as I saw in Ritchie’s plan. These guys are not just Anybodies for sure. Who to thank most? Z’s, =jwt
The the against-the-spin puddle take-in off of a long hammer, whew! I was audience for a couple hours at that tournament, Lower Woodland Park 1977, and though I didn’t see this, hey I saw a lot of stuff! The first disc tournament ever for me. Foundational! Thanks, John Kirkland. =jwt
I was a member of the Rochester Frisbee Club in the mid to late 70’s.
I hung with Dave Moore a lot.
I just wanted to see if I could send my greetings to Jim Palmeri and find out how he was doing?
Thanks
Hey Brett,
Thanks for the positive feedback. It was great seeing you too. And your passion is contagious too. I understand you infected several people in Canada!
Thank you for the shout out! Sorry we did not meet but as you now know this is a happening much more than n event and very year I feel Jipped by not being able to meet and chat with new Va States Virgins..
Great show again guys!
I think Fabian is on the best way from hightower to heintower 🙂
If facebook is right, Clay is 62.
Some of the points Joey spoke about could be managed with the dial system. The current system structures the sport right now, so there is no or lesser use for competetive players to practice “basic” skillZ… With the dial system you could win a tournament with just speedflow, but you will have the best odds with a mixture of every aspect of the game…
Thanks for the great work Jake and Randy 🙂
There’s a lot to consider in this interview. I also believe as Joey does in bringing back some of what’s been left behind. As I played in the years before and after the introduction of the delay, Joey mentioned: “learn how to throw, and catch before you start to delay”. Before delay play, with TCF ( throw catch and flow) you never knew what you were going to do from one move to the next, you could only respond to what throw you got or what you were left with after each move and it was always different. There was no way of ever controlling the disc. Visibly it was very easy for everyone to understand. This made freestyle very exciting, especially for the player. I don’t remember freestyle being any less interesting before the invention of the delay, it was just a different play. Also, It would be a great idea to open competitions up to everything freestyle has to offer, whether in play categories or judging standards, especially play that doesn’t always involve putting nails on. Thanks for the interview and Frisbeeguru Jake and Randy
Seriously, though- both. Counter is my native spin, but since I play mostly with people who are native clock jammers, I feel like both spins are now native to me.
Started with frisbee tag at age 8 in 60’s with neighborhood friends. In high school was freestyle in Edward Hines Park, Michigan which has continued until present. All good times but the 464 local disc-throwers union were the best at Tamagawa river in Tokyo. No tourneys yet.
WOW!! I had no idea of the magnitude of this event. These guys are incredible organizers. Great interview also. I’m heading out to a show at a daycare center this morning, but want to order a couple F. G. tee shirts when I get home so Jay Moldenhauer and I can have them to wear at upcoming shows. Cheers, Brian
Wow, thanks Brian! Yes, the event will be incredible. Dexter is a professional event organizer so he knows what he’s doing. Don’t forget to send me a photo once you get the shirt so i can put you on the wall of gurus! 🙂
Episode 76 with Stork was completely fascinating!
I agree that perhaps this is not a spectator activity. To me, it’s an art form. Pure & not so simple.
It needs re-thinking
I must say, in the day, it seemed as if Stork was somewhat of an adversary.
But deep down, he’s a player first. And hearing him describe his efforts to protect what we had, and convince these guys that the sport was the way to go once the market had been saturated, fills me with so much gratitude for the gifts he rendered on all our collective behalf.
The only thing wrong with that Stork-cast was that it was too short. We could also use at least two podcasts a month with just Stork stories. (Storkies?)
Old Wham-O Frisbee stories are great. The reason the WFC Rose Bowl drew a big crowd was that it was new and the venue was pretty spectacular THE ROSE BOWL! Everyone had tried playing Frisbee and just about everyone had heard stories about what people were doing with the Frisbee and wanted to see it for themselves, well everyone has seen it. The spectators now are mostly made up of players and ex-players and their families. There are lots of things needed to make a spectator sport, hometown pride, rivalries, good-looking athletes in uniforms, etc. Sports is as much about theater as it is a competition and until there is better coverage, it will pretty much stay the same. This year watching the WUCC it was the first time I saw a big change in how ultimate has been covered. The camera work was professional, ESPN, the instant replays left no unanswered questions and the announcers were extremely knowledgeable about all the players, not as smooth as ball sports announcers but it was a real improvement. I don’t know how camera people know how to find and follow the individual players on the field to create the game moments while the game is being played, but it was happening in this tournament. They seemed to know who was going to stand out and be the heroes of the day and they were mostly right and the announcers were able to build on it and tell their stories. It was the first time I’ve seen the type of coverage that could create a fan base of non-players.
Erwin, Randy, and Ted showed some great co-op flow. A lot of syncopation, and a balance of mostly easy to follow double disc moves.
Cyndi and Paul revealed what was some revolutionary double disc ideas. And Paul’s turnovers are so creative!
Good to hear Konn after all these years. He mentioned about Adrian playing disc golf, and I remember in Belgium that Adrian came in with a great score and somebody questioned it, at which point Adrian stood up and pinged a lid straight into a basket about 30m away. Priceless and hilarious moment.
There is no criteria for the playing conditions. Each team can decide what conditions are best for them. This way each city can represent their best…everyone has “home turf” advantage.
Though it could change, so far 2 are indoor, 1 outdoor, and 1 TBD
Memories from 35 years ago can be fuzzy, but the “Bill gets left behind” is missing some pieces. Both Rick Castiglia and myself were on the road trip from Colorado to California when Bill got left behind. It was my Toyota Truck with a camper shell. We would take turns driving and Doug was driving at the time. Rick and I were up front with him. Bill was in the back sleeping. When Doug pulled over, none of us knew Bill had gotten out of the back. By the time we arrived at the tournament, sure enough Bill was already there.
Money has contaminated most popular sports. Disc sports are also very affordable which is one reason that it is so inclusive. The greatest players in the old days were able to command fees for demonstrations and appearances in the media. The NY Times just published a double page spread about Ultimate with some emphasis on the “spirit of the game”. That spirit has always been important to me in Freestyle as well. I’m sure it will continue to grow but might never be a very popular spectator sport in my lifetime as I am in my 61st year of playing and doing tricks with this wonderful device. Prize money has the potential to hurt it but one can never know about unintended consequences. I’ll continue to spread the jam and the joy until I no longer can.
That was just thrilling until the last combo was finished. Thx to the Teams all around FrisbeeGuru and in the competing Cities who are making a competition format like this possible. Great job!
Aren’t there more Cities, warming up to show their skills? Prag, Karlsruhe, Roma, San Francisco… can’t wait to see all of them.
A very intriguing finals. NY really showed their stuff in the rounds they won. The pairs competition was the highlight. Two incredible performances. That was a very difficult choice. It seemed Berlin had their indie combos figured out in advance. NY pulled defeat out of the jaws of victory.
This was a great idea, and especially this round, came off very professionally, and quite dramatic. Great job everyone.
Congratulations Berlin!
Well deserved
I’ve noticed a couple of times that you’ve referred in descriptions of various aspects of nail delaying that the “act” is essential where one spins the disc on ones fingernail. It seems a bit misleading, as the delay itself obviously doesn’t “spin” anything… The disc spins…
Or not ;>)
Seems a little less precise than it could be, especially for the beginner trying to make sense of it all.
I rarely comment on anything I see or hear on the internet but, John’s samurai story in this episode then moving forward into state of mind while jamming is spot on in my mind. Thanks for expressing this!
DA
Daniel creates lines. He follows the natural flow where the disc wants to take him.
It’s a great style.
He’s also very humble and approachable. The fastest learner I’ve ever seen. Really gets the speed flow.
Thank you Daniel for sharing. I look forward to the next installment.
The Seal was actually an early paddidle move I did in 1978 as documented in PAW magazine issue #1. In 1980 at the World’s I did this move, got picked up by Bill King & John Anthony while still paddidling then thrown into the judges……music Iggy..i’m bored.
2nd World’s 1977. 7th ’78…..because Bill decided to play with Krae & Kirkland instead of the guys he trained all winter with…….9th 90.
Undefeeded World Kosmic Khastrophies Khampion
Vancouver Ultimate League Hall of Fame. Ultimate Canada Hall of Fame
Provincial Disc Golf Championships called the Jim Brown cup
Randy should now this……and where the Seal came from
Such an inspiration! Definitely one of my freestyle heroes. What I would give to see some of the routines she talked about! So excited to hear she’s coming back into the scene.
Much awe and respect from Berlin!
I own a device to measure wind speed accurately ($20) because players were always WAY high in there estimates. Like in this poll if you think you can play in 25 mph winds then you are wrong.
Good competition. A couple of drops here or there and there may not have been overtime. Good job judges. The Patrick v Monica round was omitted from video for some reason.
Congratulations Medellin!
Thanks to all of you for doing this. I have been out of commission for many months and this is a wonderful way for me to stay in touch. Watching all the fabulous new Talent makes this old pioneer feel great. I’ll be watching and rooting for everybody. The most fun wins!
Pros: Lightweight and versatile (used it for a 4 day winter trip in White Mts, for dayhikes, and alpine summits). I was able to strap on trekking poles, ice axe, and snowshoes and the load remained stable. This versatility comes from the smartly designed straps and buckles and are few but functional. It is also remarkably compressible (no objections when used as carry-on luggage).
Cons: not very water resistant. Sternum straps are adjustable (good) but it fell off (bad) but GoLite quickly sent a replacement (good).
Surprises: I thought this lightweight construction would be susceptible to wear and tear – not true, this is one tough pack! I also thought is would be relatively uncomfortable – also not true. There is a comfort diffenence between this and a pack with a suspension but in my mind, the weight savings make up for it.
When I heard the Motto of Modesto. I thought of a city where you get there a a young adult and move away when you get to be a older wiser adult. A “playground” for young adults.
Overhand wrist flip with a sub? What the hell does that mean. A straight-up wrist flip is my best counter throw, next to the left hand throw. Did I misunderstand the discriptions?
I remember visiting Larry at Stanford hospital with Kevin Buzzy Roberts. We brought special gifts including a target game redesigned with a velcro edged mini for target practice from his bedside. Larry’s stories are amazing, especially the Toe Jammers bit…”he could toe delay with either foot”>great interview and great memories. Did Larry really compete in over 30 Worlds? Unbelievable except it is true.
That was an interesting chat w Krae van Sickle. He played a lot of the other games, too.
More about his DDC times. I missed when of if he played in a game of World War-Free(two words)?
Did he ever come over here in Europe ( or did I now hear it, when I went to the WC and didn’t put it on pause:)
Poland fellows you mentioned got my attention and probable listen again. There were some players from way over there for an ‘Amsterjam’, the one with the park can be seen on the train coming in from Amersfoort to Amsterdam. If you send me an email, I have a couple clips from then. One with Tommy Leitner, I can recall easily.
Nice to share how you seen and heard things, Surely today your playing catch somewhere?
I have to have gloves when I walk with a disc, if perhaps someone wants to play:)
Great story telling by Amy. One minor factual correction…Dawson City, Yukon is in Canada, not Alaska. I sometimes wonder if US kids are taught that the Klondike goldrush was in Alaska when in fact the gold was on the edge of Dawson City, Yukon.
Thoroughly enjoyable interview with Amy.
Fun hearing the backstories!
Is there a FrizBreeze episode where Amy talks about WFDF 99 in Kalmar, Sweden? She destroyed! If I recall, Amy won every event but Accuracy. And got 2nd in that.
The DUDEtte is an astonishing athlete.
Do you have a link to an “Dream of Jeannie” video?
Nice work kiddies!
In many ways my style was the polar opposite of the beauty and grace that Krae brought to the sport. Ironically, all I wanted to do was look like Krae when I played.
Hey guys,
nice show! I assume that we can draw the same players you already drafted? Here is my team for 2021:
Juliana K.
Maxine M.
Ilka S.
Mehrdad H.
James W.
Edo T.
Kuba R.
Tom L.
Best wishes
Thomas
Hey guys,
nice show! I assume that we can draw the same players you already drafted? Here is my team for 2021:
Juliana K.
Maxine M.
Ilka S.
Mehrdad H.
James W.
Edo T.
Kuba R.
Tom L.
Best wishes
Thomas
Can I tell you how much I love traveling down memory lane in this interview with Amy. I was laughing and smiling at the crazy and unbelievable times we had traveling and performing in gigs all over the world.
One of my favorite stories that Amy didn’t mention was our crazy time in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico to open a bikini contest. From the delayed Aero Mexico flight to get there to the shanagins while we were there.
So many memories. BTW, I have on an old video Amy’s slide and Sh*! on Japanese television.
This system never works for me. The system will not allow for viewing videos, or printing my comments. It erases itself. I tried reaching out to report this stuff years ago. Was never contacted with any info. I gave up trying.
Damn that’s mighty fine. Thanks for bringing back the Weave!
Some nice new nuance there Jake. As always much appreciated for all you 3 do to keep this miraculous activity alive advancing and available. Cheers from Chicago
Thanks to Krae for mentioning me in the context of creativity in disc play. Since the beginning when I started doing simple trick catches and throws (in the late ’50s) and earned the name Circus when I got to NYC in 1965, I have loved inventing ways to use the disc creatively. I “invented” Sky Scraping”, Traffic Jamming, Disco Duel, Balloon Basket Disc, Splitso, Tripto, Three Sequential, Hall Disc, Massocism Disc, and a few others. It also is the best tool I have ever used for sculpting in sand when I’m not solo styling with the wind at the beach.
l
Really enjoyed this podcast. I am working with Peter Bloeme to bring organized disc sports to kids. We invented a game called KwikFlik to introduce kids to Freestyle as part of our upcoming Flying Disc Festival. It is a combination of DDC and Speedflow where each team has 90 seconds to complete as many throws as possible. Trick catches get extra points. Would love your thoughts on it 🙂
Hey, Randy! Jack from Vancouver here. It’s funny that you mentioned being at tournament in Vancouver in ’77. That was the first tournament, I think, that I attended (as a spectator), and I think it was Rosse Lapper who had made me aware of it. I had just started getting into disc at that time and had probably been doing it and being exposed to it for a year or two. If I remember correctly, I think I missed seeing much of it, but I distinctly remember seeing Krae’s 360 throw and, like you, being blown away. It was indeed amazing to see someone that couldn’t have weighed more than 120 or so pounds throw a 119 a hundred yards or more and dominate that event on sheer technique–and original technique at that.
Fascinating stuff. Really interesting to hear the genesis of the different tendencies in freestyle teased apart like this. I had a sort of fuzzy, general picture of it, but this made it even clearer, especially the scene in N.Y., which was a real crucible.
Thank you both, Sirs Randy and Jake for my moment in the Spotlight. It has been an Honor and a Pleasure. What a wonderful series you’ve created. Love, Pearl
I moved from Miami where I played freestyle abs thought going to LSU in 85 I’d have to give up disc sports. One of my first days there I saw Deaton in the field with his crew. I never really got into freestyle Iin college but played a ton of disc golf. Deaton would practice at Highland. We became casual friends. Our girlfriends worked at the Chimes together. Insane Foosball player and all around good guy
Thank you for all you do and have done for us listeners. I love hearing the stories. Completely understand your need to take a break. I know there’s more to come. You’ve done so much.
Thank you for all you do and have done for us listeners. I love hearing the stories and the history. Completely understand your need to take a break. I know there’s more to come. You’ve done so much.
Thank you for the five years of passion, love, stories, and freestyle history! Our community is grateful for your dedication to this work, lifting up and documenting our beloved sport!!
Thanks Guys LOVE your work for quality reporting and amazing concept. I competed for Australia in the 80’s at Rutgers 83, Santa Cruz Worlds in 85 and La Mirada.I met many of those mentioned in the interview. My peak was 4th overall in distance and international award at Santa Cruz. after that did a spell as PDGA national rep.PDGA 2029
Hi Joey,
WTF?
Well that certainly speaks volumes about the importance of professional and user friendly/intuitive website design, due diligence and routine maintenance.
Kids today, eh?
I should think that as one of the legendary early innovators of the Freestyle art form, that somebody on the site must have heard your name
spoken in reverential hushed tones by the old school Freestyle Crust?
Maybe somebody should ask Stork if he has ever heard of you?
All the best from Bali.
Nice to hear from Judy Robbins. Thank you for mentioning my longtime freestyle partner Peter Rosing, who lost his life too early. Regards, Alan Platt, Chicago
Nice to hear this. I used to jam with DM on the parade ground at LSU along with “the Glank” and “the Hatch”, back in the day. Don’t worry, they know who they are. Thanks for the memory. DM never failed to amaze and innovate. Cut up Crazy glue containers were the magicians’ secret, I never revealed til now. Had to keep the onlookers wondering. They probably though we were a bunch of weirdos. Good times!
In freestyle footbag, we’ve got a term called ‘the’ where your leg does a movement that’s supposed to go around the bag in the air, but doesn’t actually go around the bag. It’s coiner, Kenny Shults, says he took the term from freestyle frisbee; his description was that it was essentially what it was called when you broke the consecutivity that you speak of above. Does this term mean anything to you? I think it might have been spelled differently (perhaps “thuh”?). Thoughts?
In Freestyle Frisbee, a The is when you’re not doing a trick. One theory is, everything should be a trick and each trick is consecutive with no pauses or breaks. So a the is a blank moment. My guess is that it originated with “The” catch…you catch the disc with 1 hand but no restriction, spins, or anything…the way most people would catch. But it expanded over time to a “the delay” or “the brush”.
One interesting difference between freestyle footbag and freestyle frisbee is that footbag is very percussive and doesn’t have a stop point. Frisbee has times when the disc in spinning on your finger and there’s the catch, which is a natural stop point. So most Thes in frisbee tend to be the catch. The rest are more open for debate. Not that I’m foot bag expert ;-).
We do have leg overs and hoops that are sometimes not clean. E.G. The disc doesn’t go under your leg or through the hoop..or the hoop was not really closed. We don’t call those a The. Maybe we should…”the hoop”. We also have a catch called a presention. It’s basically a the, but your elbow is on the inside of your knee…like a fake figure 4 catch.
Of course, dropping the disc is the ultimate deduction. So a the is better every time.
BTW – I know Kenny. He plays freestyle frisbee with us sometimes! I’d play footbag with him, but I have ZERO foot bag skills.
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This is the single most important effort freestyle is doing at this time. Thank you Jake.
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nice…
How are you able to live stream with the HDR-PJ540? I just bought one and was told by Sony support that live streaming is not possible with this camera. I appreciate any insight you can provide. Thanks!
I use 3 blackmagic intensity capture devices: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity, for 3 Sony cameras. They grab the HDMI out from the cameras and put it into my computer uncompressed via thunderbolt or USB3. I stream at 720p. One of the features I like about Sony vs all other cameras I have tried is that I can set the output resolution on the HDMI to 720p so my computer does not have to downconvert it before streaming it.
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Kate, Angelo, and Michaela learned this pull this weekend at the beach!
Nice explanation Paul! Nice neighborhood too! 😉
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Matt, nice videos! Very helpful. Do you have any recommendations as to the size disc to use, or the best silicone spray? How about the difference between a two-handed self-toss vs. a one-handed one? Is that personal preference or are there reasons for one or the other?
I prefer the 160 gram Discraft Sky Styler. A 175 gram Ultrastar can work. In fact it might be easier to center delay, though I have not tried one for freestyle in years. But it’s a little heavy when air brushing and can hurt your hand. Lighter discs are fun for brushing in a light wind but more difficult to center delay.
For spray, I am not super picky. Any food grade silicon will do. Some folks like Krylon brand but I have a hard time finding it. Ace brand is pretty good too.
For the self throw, it is easier to get a two handed throw perfectly flat which makes it easier to practice center delay. However, you can get more spin with a one hand throw. More spin helps practicing more intricate tricks. Once I mastered the center delay I found I rarely used the two hand throw except for variety.
One thing to be aware of is the direction of the spin. I’ve seen many beginners throw counter spin when doing two hand and then clock spin when doing one hand. Spin awareness is key…intentionally throw yourself the one you want to practice.
Cool! Thanks for the helpful info. I used to have the center delay down pretty well, but never really tried doing anything but the easiest tricks. Trying to get back into it, and encouraging my son to do the same.
The amount of spin you folks can put on a frisbee amazes me…I suppose that has a bit to do with practice and experience.
Thanks again!
Possess an extraordinary responsibility.
I feel it is one of the most exciting moments of my life, to enjoy and learn from all this watching jammers World Championship from Medellin. A big hug to all!! And do not stop Turn !!!
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I posted the play order in the morning. By the afternoon it changed!
Are routines being posted to YouTube?
Click Live Freestyle. Then click play. If it’s offline you’ll see previous broadcasts.
Does your freestyle repertoire include the ability to do a “turn-over” with a results sheet? (1st two are U.D.)
I turned them over but they are cached that way in wordpress somewhere. I don’t know how to clear it.
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I have the Sony HDR-PJ540, and I am extremely new to live streaming. First, thank you for letting me know Sony says it cant be done with this camera, and for finding a way to do it. would it be possible for you to give me a list of devices, cables, etc. that I would need to live stream with this camera. thanks
I use a short micro HDMI to HDMI cable. This came with the camera. If I want to go longer I add an unpowered HDMI amplifier / coupler and then use a long (up to 50 ft) HDMI cable. I tried longer cables and never got a reliable signal.
The end of the HDMI cable plugs into one of these: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity
Out from there is a thunderbolt cable to a Macbook Pro.
In the Macbook I use Wirecast for broadcasting. There’s a great software called Black Syphon. I use this to test the video signal. There’s also OBS, a free broadcasting software. I have used it, and it’s nice for free software but I really love Wirecast.
Here’s another tip. The Blackmagic Intensity will not autodetect the HDMI signal resolution. So, set the camera to exactly what you want. I use 720p. Now, you have to figure out the frame rate. A camera for the USA (like mine) will send 59.95fps. European cameras usually send 50fps. So in your capture software you have match…so i set Wirecast to capture at 720p@59.95. This is where black syphon helps. You can quick cycle through every possible option until you find a match. Then close it and setup wirecast.
Last tip. Even though thunderbolt is supposed to be plug and play, I find the I have to power on with the devices plugged in or they may not work. If they get unplugged (or crash for some reason) I will reboot to get things working again.
Let me know if you have any more questions.
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Hi Matt,
the major question I get while explaining the Nail Delay is: How I do get back to the center, after my finger is in the rim? (Stage 6)
It would be very helpfull to get a detailed explanation how it works: Track of the finger, body movement, taking a flying disc with angle directly to the centerdelay without going in the rim.
Thank you!
One of the first articles on heinsville was on this topic: http://www.heinsville.com/going-from-a-rim-delay-to-a-center-delay/.
I think it’s time to make a video follow up.
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This throw is the best to start when you are learning the delay, because you get the disc over your head, so you can see the bottom of the disc. That makes it easier to focus the center when you try to do the nail delay!
Also a disc design with an empty circle in the middle is helpfull to get a visual border for your finger.
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Is the Name “Sub” a shortcut for something?
That is a good question but unfortunately I don’t know the answer. Let’s see if we can find a master who knows.
Sub, is short for speeded up delivery and just as a side note a mac is short for mid air collision, often ultimate players confuse brushing with with the term.
I take that back, Paul is mac’ing at the end of this video,Speed up deliveries are discussed in pro disc freestyle vol 1 by Wayne Z
OK, I need to go rewatch that. I have always thought that a SUB was contact on top and a MAC was contact on the rim/side.
I think this is what you are refering too: https://youtu.be/naojITctB50?t=259
Speeded Up Brush
Yes that’s the part I was talking about, it’s been a while since I watched it, only just got volume2 so been working on/with stuff in that. My understanding has always been sub’s are in the realm of throwing manipulations where as Mac’s are in flight manipulations.
I wrote a pretty complete article about attitude change in Frisbee World (Jan/Feb) 1978 (the Sammy Schatz cover). The piece described the early development of skipping off of body surfaces (which I had first seen done by Juna Bodá. This was always done on the underside of the disc. In about ’74, at Rutgers, we started experimenting with top work and calling the technique a MAC, for Midflight Attitude Correction. I think that I first showed it in competition at Octad 77, playing with the the magnificent Mutant from Modesto, Andy Yates. It was a big hit.
The article in ’78 featured some cool pictures of Freddie Haft and me playing on the beach. The article also discussed some of the fun and challenging variations from constricted positions. What I’ve always enjoyed most about the MAC is how well you can tailor a flight for your playing partner. In particular, once you get the hang of it (a very light touch is often enough) you can vary your contact point to curve the resulting flight as well as adjusting the attack angle. A real challenge is using a reverse position MAC to create a skip flight by pushing the nose of the disc down. This usually requires a very smooth playing surface, like in a gym. I know that I said that it’s a light touch move, but the MOST fun is to deal with a red hot screamer shot that is very close to the ground. If you bang it hard and at just the right spot, the disc noses right up into the wind and hovers over your receiver. Not much more fun to be had than that. The MAC line has long been a popular game with 5 to 10 players lined up, each trying to slightly adjust the disc. This game also has been a part of ultimate sidellne play for quite a while. It’s fun to know that the move is still being explored and enjoyed. Thanks for highlighting it, Paul.
Wow, thanks Stork for all the detail. I wonder if someone can find a copy of that article. Maybe all those old Frisbee Worlds should be put online.
Anyhow, I have been experimenting with a top touch MAC as well. I use it in a strong beach wind. I brush the disc into to the wind too steep on purpose. As the disc blows back and tries to escape, I try to find just the right place, pressure, and body part to touch it to nose it down and make it sit for me again. Every so often I do it just right with my nail so the touch can be extended into a micro top side delay.
Greetings!
I’ve loved frisbees my entire (54 year) life. Dabbled with a few tricks as a teenager. Have not been playing for about 30 years but am picking it up again. So I’m a novice, but I’m very excited to learn about serious (and fun!) Freestyle. Just wanted to say thank you for making all this incredible info available!
Best,
Paul K.
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Comments like this are what keep me going. Glad you’re enjoying! If you’re ever in Portland or Seattle give a shout-out and maybe we can jam together.
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Since this is clock spin, it seems difficult to learn the nail delay on the right hand as he shows. So far I have learned to nail delay clock spin with my left hand but have not yet learned to delay using my right with this spin.
I have heard a theory that it is easier to learn clock on the left and counter on the right. However, I learned clock on the right first. I think being right handed, I focused on that first. I still have more control on my right than my left. My guess is everyone is different and more than anything, it just takes practice.
Somtimes I am catching the phlaud with the head at the same side where I am catching to have a better focus. Is the head position part of the phlaud definition?
I think head position is part of the definition. I polled the 3 other jammers who happen to be in the room with me now and there’s a 50/50 split. Certainly head position changes the difficulty level. It’s a blind catch if you are looking around your body, while not if you are looking on the same side as your hand. I’d be very curious to hear other people’s opinions.
Traditionally Phlaud is caught blind. This would require the head to look around the opposite side of the legs as the catch. However, this is freestyle and both would mostly likely pass as a Phlaud, but learning to catch it blind will help in the long run. At higher levels of competition, catching a blind Phlaud should result in a higher score than a non-blind Phlaud.
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I love the explanation! And, adding a web-name that folks can understand more who are not yet enculturated to the concept of Hein makes total sense. Thanks for doing this Jake!
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an under used throw for ultimate as well
Thanks for sharing/document this important process/requirements!
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I think part of what the Beast is referring to is the current lack of the flight of the disc. People love to watch it fly. Exchanges , lots of exchanges , like the Coloradicals also keeps them interested. When some one does a complicated take and indie you can see people losing interest in watching , is it like jerking off? Well maybe that’s going too far. I do notice that casual watchers of jams treat catches like drops as far as their interest goes, it is over, they move on. Play by play , web casting are the future of the sport. But you need the right personalities. I only got into watching the LA Lakers because of Chick Hern, we all have our fav broadcasters. Crazy John Brooks does a phenomenal job of announcing the Disc Golf events. So there is room for the technical but it needs to be hyped and explained. The current system does not reward different approaches to the disc because every 15 sec you are supposed to put down a difficulty score. This leaves out extended quick catch or piddling, etc. Let’s make it more alternative, goofier, more fun to watch with different takes on what to do with the disc.
Good thoughts. I agree with your assertion about commentary. For AFO 2014 I wanted to add commentary to the webcast. I got pushback from people I asked to do it and others attending the event. As a player and fan, I understand that having someone talk over a routine can take away from experiencing how they match their moves with the music. But for anyone who isn’t yet a fan, they need to be talked into it. My experience with UFC was the same as yours with the lakers. Watching people beat on each other was not that interesting to me until I heard Joe Rogan explain the strategy, different positions, etc. Now as a UFC fan, I have a huge respect for what the fighters are doing, but it’s only because Joe explained it to me.
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It’s true, when people come as a visitor to a tournament, even if they take a disc and play that weekend, they usually don’t start playing right away. It’s like others said, you need to take time for them, also expressing that they are really welcome and give them a reliable option to come again and learn with experianced players.
But the size of audience is still very important for the growth and here is why:
Karlsruhe was mentioned as a place where many newcomers are born. Yes, they provide the option to come to a course and if anybody stopps and watches at a jam, they get inolved somehow immediately.
BUT: It took us years in Karlsruhe, already back in the days when I was still living there, to play shows, give workshops and promote the sport for free to publicize that this sport is existing, what it is about and that there is a way to easily participate. We offered a course like 6 or 7 years ago and almost nobody was interested. After many years of public relations and successfull tournaments the growth has just started a few years ago.
It is a long way but the resonance to teaching offers is directly connected to the publicity in the certain region. And this is why bigger audience is important to grow the sport.
Beside it pushes you to give everything in a routine and turns on the vibe. At some tournaments it’s already quite nice, usually when a freestyle event happens together with ultimate and the schedule allows them to watch us. For example Paganello, Spirit Camp, Sandslash. But also well organized and promoted tournaments like FPAW 2015.
Obviously not all jammers want that or care for it.
And for myself, I wouldn’t give away a style of play or a favoured judging category only to attract audience. I think we are a small community and we are also playing for exactly this community. And we can only play the way the way we like it to keep expressing freestyle with the necessary charisma. And if we can attract audience with it, perfect.
So do I want to change the tournaments game, where it is actually about figuring out who can do AI AND DIFF AND EX? No.
Would I change the game at a show where it is for spectators only? Absolutely!
Cheers,
Freddy
We always took the competitions to the crowds, whether it was the Toronto Islands or Kitsilano Beach in Vancouver, there would always be big crowds with nothing to do just waiting for something to happen. The exception to this was the Santa Cruz Tournaments and the WFC where people would actually come to a stadium to see the event but in both of those events there would have to be a tremendous amount of advance promotion and publicity. If you’re not ready to do that much work, then you should look for a ready-made crowd for your event. Players can find an empty field to go play freestyle in anytime they want, if you’re putting on a competition and asking players to take the time and travel expense to come, you owe it to them to make it great. Having spectators isn’t everything but being able to show and share your passion with new people can be as much fun as the competition.
To make the sport more popular you will need to make the activity less about technical difficulty and more about flight of the disc and beautiful movement. The system of judging plays a significant role. Look at figure skating. It has become a contest to see who can spin around the most and land on their skates. I am amazed at the development of freestyle and I love how it has developed over the past 40 years. If judging rewards the advancement of play in a particular direction, most competitors will follow that direction. Imagine the educational process necessary to ensure the audience understood the added difficulty of against the spin. Freestyle is one of the few sports that is not following the line that has already been traced. That is what is truly beautiful.
Hey gang, great to see this conversation happening. It’s much needed. Nice goin, John Anthony, you’re preaching to my choir. What hooked me on frisbee watch watching 2 guys from 3 stories up skip the disc on both of the outside bounce points from the direct path between them. It blew my mind. I went and tried it myself and threw the dang thing over the fence and off the roof, down into the street. That was it for me.
And when Donnie Rhodes and I did halftime Knicks shows at Madison Square Garden and for the New Jersey Nets (dunno what exit), the crowd didn’t care anywhere as much about our technically difficult freestyle moves as they did tbd half court baskets we sunk. They went all batsplatforthat.
I fought tooth and nail against Krae’s DiscDance vision even while I was a part of it, lucky dog that I was, and he had it right: if you want an audience, you have to entertain them. To entertain someone, you have to focus on them, not you. Of course to be able to do that, you have to have some chops, but you get those down do you can forget them. I’ll never be able to do the things that the best players can do now, nor was I able to do them when I was at the top of my game. I never really had the skills. What I had (still got it!) was energy. Presence. Perform-ability. I could get “hot”, and the pressure of competition made me hotter. I never executed my stuff as well in demos as I was able to complete things in competition. If you watch video of me and really analyze if you’ll see that I never really did a whole lot. It used to really disappoint me when I would see what I actually wasn’t capable of. Yet I was popular. I don’t know how much of that would help me win events today, even if I had my game back (working on getting a new one!). I kinda doubt it. But I definitely wouldn’t invest a whole lot of time (or dime!) to play for the audiences that the sport attracts today.
But imnsho, and where I’m putting my energy, is on the bigger picture, as I see it. It’s this. Besides the fact that the sport itself isn’t particularly attractive to people because they don’t understand it and the stuff that gets most of the attention of modern players is not geared towards the spectacle itself, flight, emotion, speed, movement…nor do most players have the time or resources to develop themselves as performance / movement artists to the degree that their (theoretical) peers / counterparts do (because really, though it sucks to be a waiter (actor, dancer, writer) or other kind of starving artist, at least the potential payoff might possibly be worth it…the reason nobody cares about what we do is that…nobody cares about what we do. Frisbee is irrelevant in the world.
I want to change that.
Love,
Jeff
Also troubling is that the good majority of players are over 50. Let’s face it, Freestyle is great, but it is sadly not even as popular as juggling or yo-yo competitions. Ultimate, and to some extent golf, are the future of disc sports.
I’m sorry but that is just not accurate. Go to Europe, Japan, or Columbia and you’ll find many young players. They far out number those over 50.
Sorry Jake, you’re just wrong. There are still way too many grey-haired competitors and finalists at major freestyle tournaments. that’s just embarrassing. But the real embarrassment is the growth rate of this sport for the last 30 years which is probably negative or flat at best. Compare this now to Ultimate which has grown exponentially and will soon become an Olympic sport. Freestyle is akin to juggling or yo-yo and truth is it is even less appealing to the masses. For those of us who appreciate freestyle, it is truly wonderful so that’s great. Unfortunately it is a niche hobby/sport that will never take off.
Not sure what you define as “too many” or “embarrassing”. Looking at the most recent open rankings: http://www.freestyledisc.org/fpa-open-rankings-update-february-2017/ 6 of the top 30 are over 50. Personally, it motivate me to still be shredding in my 50s. I’d also guess that in 2 years that number shrinks. In terms of growth over 30 years, I would love to see some stats. I was not a part of the sport in 1987, but I can say that when I started in 1995 through 2003 there was very little growth. I had met everyone there was to meet about 3 years in. Then something changed and growth exploded. Not in the USA, but in Europe. It’s still growing. Every event I attend outside the USA I meet new players. It’s not because I’ve never been there before, it’s because there are new players starting to jam. The bottom line for me is that I believe it can and will grow. Where it grows to, I don’t know. But I will keep putting in the effort.
You do that Jake.
Bravo Jake! I think crowds are great. Look at the 2015 FPA worlds in Karlsruhe – how fun was that playing in front of a big crowd.. Paganello also has big crowds every year. They love it -the idea of bringing freestyle to where the crowds already are is a good one…festivals, action sports events like NASS, etc
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Walking to class in the early 80s at the University of Vermont…
Saw three students out in one of the common areas throwing a disc…
One guy “caught” a soft throw directly into a delay and then proceeded to hold that delay as he took the disc down low, behind his back (almost between his legs) and then tapped the disc through his legs and back into the air (disc now in front of him again). He then regained control of the disc by putting it into another delay…finally catching it and immediately making a beautiful throw to the next guy in the threesome. End of story. I was hooked! 🙂
Nice story and great inspiraton!
In Karlsruhe we are often playing the weaves.
We are starting with throw and catch with a longer distance over the whole gym length, so everybody is getting warmed up by running.
After that we are coming closer together and still just throw and catch.
Next step is that we play the weaves with high angle set throws that are perfect for more difficulty catches – the radius of the group is now only 2-4 meters.
Than we give some spin on the disc and also delay it. Most of the time that are some pulls that are directly shooted back. All that with the “Man in the middle” technic of the weaves..
At this point everybody knows their best positionig moving and is in the FLOW.
Maybe someone else can explain the weaves technic more detailed 😉
What helps me is thinking of the sequence: throw, hoop, catch. The weave is great practice!
fun read, and I’m a believer. Because I have the ‘vice’ as middleperson of touching the disc as it goes by, sometimes to good effect, yes, but often enought exasperating my receiver. I should hoop more! Z’s, =jwt
I always say, “if you can’t help it, hoop it.”
Casually went to Paganello 2010
As a freshman in college at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, there were a bunch of us who regularly played catch outside our dorms. Back then, in their disc packages Wham-O included a brochure that invited people to write Wham-O for information about starting a club. Our friend Jeff did, and the information that we got back described some of the events and suggested that we form a club. We formed the UWM Frisbee Club, which gave us access to gym time in the winter, and to a van to travel to tournaments. We structured our time together inside by freestyling (at the beginning we were just doing under the leg, or BTB catches, and a handful of throws) for a third of the time, transitioning to Guts for another third of the session, and then finishing up with a game of Ultimate. That was, ahem … 40 years ago, and I am looking forward to jamming at least twice this weekend!
I love the idea of a Freestyle Frisbee Club. I’ve been part of freestyle groups but we never thought of ourselves as a club. Do you think being a club vs just being a bunch of jammers changed the experience?
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I helped invent the sport.
Bring back Diff Made Easy!
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Great question. My ideal number of mob-opping colleagues is about 4-5. It also depends on how energetic the other four people would be, since more people in a highly energetic Jam… up to 6 might work well also.
My idea of an ideal jam is a power-trio. Especially when everyone’s in the zone and massive moves are performed. Love every jam size, but in my opinion, this one takes the cake.
As Lori says it depends on who is in the Jam. Also what you want out the Jam but for me I feel more connected with less jammers and more discs. Peace and Z’s
I like between 3 and 5. It all depends on energy, skillset and conditions for me. Some jams get big and are still amazing. Others are more fun if they stay smaller. What’s most important to me is that people are engaged and getting action. If there are people that are getting forced to stand around for long periods it may be time to pick up another disc.
2 is great but it’s much harder to hoop and pass and not get tired.
With 3, one person can be the “man in the middle”, hooping, adjusting, etc. I love being that person – I think “how can I be a part of this combo without ever touching the disc.”
4 is ideal to me, especially when everyone is engaged in the mob-op. 4 lets you choose, rest for a minute keep going full tilt. There are also more possibilities with 4 which keeps things feeling random and fresh.
5 is where is usually begins to feel too slow for me, though it all depends on how engaged people are in the jam.
The knob needs to go to 11
YES!
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I saw the nike freestyle commercial that was part of the nike freestyle tour 2003.
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No as the player ratings are really only competition ratings. If you had a competition tomorrow with the current top hundred players Dave Murphy would be a challenger / amateur. It would make more sense to have a open first round then split the field. Peace and Z’s
I think the descition who will play in that division should be done by the players itself. Everybody knows best if he/she is a beginner. It is dishonorable for an advanced player to compete in this division with just the goal to win.
A Challenger Division only if there are enough other players on that tournament.
A World Championships will crown the best players of the world so an beginners class is not authentic. A Juniors division is thinkable but therefore we need do more promotion of young people!
I agree.
Sadly in disc golf they split the field based on a ranting system but now have a word for those players who are dishonorable… bagging.
Now let’s talk about Juniors!!!
This sport is not set in stone. Experimenting is the key to growth. Anything that brings in new and especially young players should be tried.
I agree that anything that brings in new and especially young players in is the goal, but i don’t think tinkering with competition formats is going to help really. Just look at the poll “How were you first introduced to Freestyle Frisbee?” only 6% of players started as a result of a competition/ tournament.
Peace and Z’s
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The idea is not new to sports- just new to freestyle frisbee. A ladder that players can climb up (or in my case, maybe, climb back down after aging out of a time when I could have been competitive). It’s not about whether we know/knew we can win the challenger division, really. It’s knowing that there is a place for us to fit in with our skill sets and competitive freestyle background.
Juliana, with all her disc golf and overall titles, is still very much a novice (on the rise) in freestyle competition. For all my years of overall competition, I have only played in two freestyle-only competitions. At age 60, it doesn’t make sense to get on the field with the true pros, no matter what the prospects are of winning in a different division.
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Always, unless Mike or Beast or somebody beats me. We always try to engage interested watchers.
I would like to say i always do but that would not be true. We get a lot of people watching in Brighton form foreign exchange students to photography students, parents and their kids to local drunks. Obviously not all are going to get involved (i/we have had some success with the exchange students and our local drunk to be fair) so i choose my battles as it where, not that spreading the Jam is a battle, i love it.
What i always do though is if i see someone playing with a disc, is give them a Skystyler to play with, there are a lot of cheap disc’s out there that are not much fun to play with, poor tools. I then watch and gauge where they are at and will then bust their jam and give appropriate advice and positive feed back. When we are done i then tell them where to get more information on freestyle and an open invitation to join in our jams.
I think we have done well in Brighton spreading the Jam but it takes time in fact years for that new person to go form being a freshstyler to a fair weather Jammer to a hard core Jammer.
Peace and Z’s
PS Get your sign out and they will come.
Heaving outside the Student Union Field at the University of Iowa in 1979 with my roommate, then a random dude joined us, and immediately it was clear this was no longer a game of throw and catch. He threw very well, and the only catch I remember was a deflect — he caught by pinching it between his thigh and leg.
The only other thing I remember is he was a little on the heavy side, and was California. He made quite an impression on me.
Jim is our unofficial spokesman. He always stops to talk to those who are watching us. If we see the person is interested in playing, one of us always gives a disc to them. I love it when the children stop in awe and and are thrilled to play with one of our HDX’s Thanks Jim for always taking the time to spread the jam. ! For my part, I’ll offer up a disc or throw a few minutes with someone.
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Thanks for the airtime and the great interview, you guys. That was fun. Loved the other interviews as well.
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i do think it very much helps
i think it helps very much
I would like to see more “spawn” routines rewarded as that reflects better what jamming is all about.
Playing indoors so that routines can be realized should be saved for exhibitions. Competition should be about adapting to conditions and partners as this is what we do when we jam. Competitions should reflect what the sport is all about. This would also open it up to more competitors. Not everyone lives near other top competitors so they are at a disadvantage or maybe the top person near you is already paired up, what do you do? Quit? So lets make tournaments more about including as many as possible in spontaneous formats with random pairings. This does seem to be a long way aways from where we are now but where is that? Are we really drawing in new participants? Since we are not competing for money or fame then lets reevaluate what do we want the sport to be.
The content and “touch” of a routine isn’t solely depending on whether it’s choreographed or not. You can choreograph it to look spontaneous and vice verse. It has always been the choice of players’ to perform what they like and some have had an emphasis on “goin’ for” winning tournaments. However the later choice doesn’t necesarilly lead to getting more points….winning tournaments. For instance the current judging system simplifies a.i. by using the no of co-ops to determine co-op work. Look at some of the co-op routines of WFC 1981 – Coloradicals and Rhodes/Felberbaum/Elliot and Hudoklin/Jewell/Smiths. The routines contain lot’s of co-ops and a lot of indies. Good choreography and difficulty on both. Flow, moving around, playing to the music as a whole and not “hitting” a few cues. The were mostly choreographed but it doesn’t feel like it’s limiting the experience of the performance. As a whole I think these routines are better than the winning co-op routines of today. It’s true that the competive scene was different; more players on a very high level and relatively young (<30 years old). I quote Z Weyand who often adress the issue. We need to get more people to our sport, to come out and play. It really doesn't matter (that much) who wins but we must of course have a system that we can use at tournaments. The people using it must have a general understanding of what moves/coops/other elements receive a certain score. I look forward to see all jammers competing or not: choreographing or not….
This routine was very inspiring. In fact, we listened to the podcast right after we watched the video twice, and then went to the Shores to jam with Dave Murphy for 2 hours (for the third day in a row, no less).
Anyway, back to the podcast- I learned so much about Donnie and Allen that I never knew. The Overall players of that era didn’t mix or mingle much with the freestylers, though we knew some of them.
So, thanks guys, for the great history lesson and filling in those gaps.
the parallel with donnie is amazing!except canadian version i had an extra 5 years back experience before 79.i thot evan david and corey baso won van 79 my 1st real tourney.
ha that mirrors the guru stamp on my whitler golf discs down to the floating frisbees
great interview once again! amazing to hear about the history of these two – and the amazing stories being told that so many of us weren’t aware of. this is great!
Pingback: Poll: What other skills do you use to enhance your Freestyle Game? - Heinsville
Helped with cardio (bike, swim, ultimate) and dealing with different wind conditions (other disc sports).
Pingback: Poll: What other skills do you use to enhance your Freestyle Game? - Heinsville
Jake, pls remember to add photo credits.
My apologies, Lars. I did not know the source of the photo. Fixed now. If anyone sees this, Lars is a wonderful photographer. Click his name to see his see his work. Lot’s of frisbee stuff, and beautiful landscape shots. You won’t be disappointed.
Soccer for sure improves my way of “style-thinking”. I’ve several moves, which won’t exist without my soccerexperience since i’m 10 years old.
Cool that somebody is asking such questions. I’m very interested about the answers!
Jake: this is one of the best descriptions I’ve ever read about the Va States! You capture the essence of this event so nicely and accurately. If I had a transporter… I’d be there! Oh wait! I can watch the live-stream instead! It’s the next best thing…. thank you!
Thanks you guys for the great interview and providing us insights into the Spread the Jam Project videos! What a gift to our sport these videos have become! I also use various ones to show folks what freestyle disc is about. The editing and music choices used add such a beautiful aesthetic – I think the StJ videos do speak to a wider audience. It’s easy to enjoy the artistic edge that James and Ryan have put into each of the StJ videos.
Great video for a complete rookie like myself! I just wanted to say: “Greetings and Thank you!” I know it takes a lot of hard work and time to create this wonderful educational material. I started getting psyched about freestyle in the 70s as a teenager but never really got serious. Then “life” happened and I got busy with career, family etc. and never made the time to improve my skills. (Living in Vermont where there were more cows than people back in those days didn’t help either. I didn’t have access to other people who were enjoying freestyle.) Now at age 54, I’m totally pumped about putting some real effort into developing some skills before my body gets any older! LOL. So to me this educational material is priceless!
You have my deepest gratitude for sharing the joy of freestyle.
If I can put all the pieces together I’m hoping to get to Virginia this year!
Take Care and Be Well,
Paul Kruse
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I use this video to introduce freestyle to the curious:
Freestyle Frisbee: Bandshell (feat. Jake Gauthier and Ryan Young)
https://youtu.be/8e4kotIdrt0
Born: 1975
Jamming: 1995
1st tourney 1980 (19), 2nd tourney 1993 (35)
Was your first tourney experience so harsh that you didn’t return for 13 years?
Born: 1971
Jamming: 2015
Born 1959 Started playing frisbee the year before Jake was born 🙂 – 1974
Born: 1947
Started playing Frisbee: 1962, maybe earlier?
Started Freestyling: 1977
’78 Started playing ultimate, freestyle a year later
’61 or ’62 off and on through college and law school. then many years mostly off, until kids got involved in overall and ultimate. I explicitly chose freestyle as my main sport in 1999. Z’s, =jwt
Started playing frisbee in 1957, Freestyle was all there was back then.
Entered the competitive freestyle world in 1975 at WFC Rose Bowl
Started disc golf in ’66, in Berkeley Tournaments in ’68
Started learning to nail delay in 1978 and really started to freestyle in 1980-81. First competition in 1982.
Oh yeah, born 1962
Started playing in the 60’s. Learned to delay and freestyle in Chico, CA 1978. First tournament, Fall 78′
1st played 60’s, age 60, freestyle start 72,1st tourney 79
Born 1962, Freestyler 1978.
Born 1955, started playing Ultimate at Glassboro State when I was 18 in 1974. Started jamming after seeing Victor M, John K, Ken W, Kerry K, Doug C, New York crew, Stork & Irv at Octad ’75
You know when I was born, so no need for me to embellish on that question. I first saw freestyle in 1981 when I saw Eric Wooten freestyling on my college campus. My first competition was the 1982 Virginia States, and I did all the events including freestyle.
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Born in 1973, first UTL catch summer 92. Learned the nail delay 98…took a while 😉
First tournament as a jammer in Paganello 2002.
First tournament as a competitor at the EFC Amsterdam 2005.
Born in ’66, first went out and talked to the Jammers in the park on the Labour Day weekend last year. Learned to delay in October. Seven months now for me. Good times.
I forgot to vote but I can bring down the average age! Born 1994, jamming 2014
Those young’ns need you!
Being 42, I consider myself part of the “lost generation”.
Pingback: Poll: Routine Lengths - Heinsville
Pingback: Poll: When you compete, how much of your routine is planned? - Heinsville
Flexibility should be put into the comp manual and for FPAW, AFO, EFO, WFDF and any other “important” event. The decision should be “negotiated” between the FPA Board and TD…My sense is it should be variable by no more than 1 minute in the short term (3 and 4 minutes) so the change is not too radical. With the internet and social media, the attention span of our audience is much less than the past I am afraid.
Why not give longer routines a try.? Pre ’86 routines were 5 minutes which meant players got 3 -4 indies each. This was a big factor in motivating players to work on their games, their variety.
In other sports like tennis the major events are longer to determine a clear winner – there are five sets instead of three and they get rid of the tiebreaker so you must win by 2 games in the final set.
Most new players have never tried to compete in five minute pairs routines, it would be interesting to see how they would do. From experience I can tell you it gives you time to get into a flow without being rushed. At Frisbeer this year I got one short indy 🙁
You could also have less teams in the final like six instead of eight so that the event would not run long
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Hi Jake
what are you meaning by having “deep pockets”? Is it the financial ability to travel around the world to participate in tournaments, or an unlimited amount of moves & catches?
Thanks…
Deep pockets means the player has a large number of moves and catches.
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Pingback: Paganello 2017 - Day 1 Results - Heinsville
Very fun interview!
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That was a great interview. Thx very much!
I definitely go with Doug E Fresh’s List. Hm
For me, there has to be Lisa Hunrichs, Jakub Kostel and Gary Auerbachon on that List too. With these dudes and duderinas i have had some of the best Jamminutes in my life. Power, Passion and Grace!
Thanks for the post!
– Paul Kruse
(Vermont)
Watched the freestyle semi finals live until about 11:30 PM EST. Loved it! Looking forward to seeing the rest when it’s posted for replay. The quality of the video and audio was very very good.
Many Thanks!
– Paul
Pingback: Virginia States 2017 - Teams in the Finals - Heinsville
thanks for posting Jake
My pleasure 🙂
Pingback: Poll: What Spin do You Take? - Heinsville
My favorite response to the question of “which spin?” – Your best throw.
I’ve heard you say that!
I learned clock first. Now I can do both, but I’m still stronger with clock. But my answer to the question is “it doesn’t matter”.
Even though I demand both and more, angles ,upside down, I will say counter just to make sure I get some or else its 27 backhands in a row.
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First of all, great podcast — Love to hear the crusty ones insider knowledge of the old days.
Couple of thoughts…
On ‘how to attract a crowd’:
1) more gymnastic. People glom on to sports that give ’em ‘the fear factor’. Bigger air, bigger risk, more athletic. If someone were to find a real gymnast who wanted to do freestyle, it would probably take the sport in a very big new direction.
2) better timing. Its all well and good to do a bunch of difficult moves, that only insiders can tell is hard. But the human brain responds basically automatically to elegance and flow, and you did see this more, because there were fewer possibilities, in early players, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a next level. Better form would be a subset of this as well.
3) more ‘Mind=Blown’ quality. I remember watching kray at the Hampshire College gym many moons ago, and he did some combo that my brain literally couldn’t conceptualize. He moved, combined things really, in ways it had never even occurred to me were possible. Not so much ‘difficult frisbee manipulation, but unprecedented ways of going from one thing to the next. Of course Kray has the timing/elegance/flow/form thing in spades too, so it was fast, and elegant…
In general, if one is interested in attracting interest, I think too much attention is paid to ‘how hard a move is to do’, and not enough emphasis on the human doing it. There is tremendous disc manipulation technology these days, truly amazing, but a long standing trend of de-emphasizing the human body aspect of it all. The frisbee should provide counter-point to what the human is doing, not the other way around. The audience doesn’t care what the frisbee does, they care what the people do.
On ‘Tournaments are what we do’
This has been a particular sticking point for me, for a long time, and I’ve thought about it a lot. I didn’t get into freestyle from a competitive, sporty, angle. I was doing karate and meditating, and that angle has always been the way I’ve related to it. As a non-competitor, and mid level player, I’ve found it hard to have a meaningful role in the extremely competition focused world of freestyle. I say extremely because in no other sport in which I’ve participated, again at an amateur level, is there anywhere near the emphasis on tournament. Even with the frisbee world, while its certainly true that golf and ultimate have lots of tournaments, and lots of players focused on competition, there are larger numbers of people who play these sports without ever a though of entering a tournament. And it is precisely the non-tournament players who become the audience at the tournaments, who provide the interest level that grows the sport. My two cents, is that if freestyle were thought of more as ‘mind/body flow training’ and not ‘I’m the best player in the world’, one would attract a different and larger crowd of people. Most people aren’t going to win the tournament, and if you want to keep them interested, there has to be something in it for them. And I tend to think that frisbee as mind/body merging training, meditative attention, is far superior to things like tai-chi, (but not for ‘subtle body energy work’, obviously) and with a disciplined concerted focus on this idea, over time, could rival things like karate, offering as it does a challenge to fluidity, and responsiveness, and detail orientation, that martial arts rather lack.
Mike
Thank you for your thoughts on other ways to embrace and share freestyle beyond competition. One of the reasons I continue to go to competitions is so I can meet and jam with all my friends. It would be fun to have other outlets for Freestyle that are not competitive. That’s what I love about our beach weekend events.
There were several “Jam Camp” events as well. I attended the ones in California. We taught many people of all skills and ages how to Freestyle. People loved it. Another great example of Freestyle without the competition.
I also like your perspective about Freestyle as a form of meditation. For me, that is very much a part of why I jam. It gets me very in-the-moment”.
I more and more regret not going to events, because I love all the folks I know, and those I don’t, and miss seeing them. I’ve always had some money issues, and right now, have them in spades. If I could figure out how to have money, and time, I’d be at everything.
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Other: I go to competitions to Live Stream.
All joking aside, the competitive aspect of Freestyle has become secondary to me yet I still love to attend competitions. Two of the main reasons: First is to be with my friends. You freestylers are some of my best friends in the world. Second is to jam. I love jamming. After 22 years I still can’t get enough. Jamming with other people is inspiring; seeing new moves or new takes on old moves, seeing or helping people improve, and seeking those magic moments where the impossible becomes possible.
I have to say, beach weekend and Jam Camp were pretty amazing because there is no competition.
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Pingback: Frisbee Guru Becomes our Parent Brand - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Frisbee Guru Becomes our Parent Brand - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Frisbee Guru Becomes our Parent Brand - FrisbeeGuru
From a rookie perspective (mine), I think this is great. It’s a win/win. “Frisbeeguru” is easy for new folks to remember and relate to, and also makes a great “umbrella/parent” under which to put all things freestyle. But keeping “Heinsville” alive and well is (to me) very very important too. I care about the history of this sport and I want to be able to research, learn, and understand how things evolved to where they are today. Well done!
Yes, thanks for telling us about your new branding. I, too, have found myself having to explain the word Heinsville to more than a few people over the years. It’s much easier for folks to reference frisbee Guru, and it also fits with the continued progression of your website. I’ve become a great fan of the podcast, and really enjoy listening to them while I make myself dinner. Thanks for that as well.
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With a whiz ring, very light wind, maybe 3-6. With a SkyStyler, I like it heavy: 9-12. Maybe even more. It would interesting to measure the speeds during different jams.
Although I knew some of what you’re describing above, I didn’t know about the tin golf game from the 1920s, nor Stork and Papa Jack’s early prowess with discs at the World’s Fair events. Thanks for posting this!
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As a rookie to freestyle, I am LOVING the opportunity to start understanding this history. If I were in my teens or 20s I might not care so much (I never liked history in school). But now that I’m an old geezer in my 50s and I understand how important history is, I am cherishing these posts!
As always, THANKS for all you do Jake! I know it’s a lot of work!
Best,
Paul M Kruse
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Pingback: Episode 16: Jeff Felberbaum Continues the Conversation - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Episode 16: Jeff Felberbaum Continues the Conversation - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: History: 1974; The Origin of Freestyle Competition - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: History: 1968-1973; The Formative Years - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The Flamingitosis - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The Flamingitosis - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Poll: What is the Ideal Playing Surface? - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The American Freestyle Open 2017 Will be Streamed Live - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The American Freestyle Open 2017 Will be Streamed Live - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The Jammers 2017: Video Replay - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Jam Report - Jam camp day 2 - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Jam Report - Jam camp day 2 - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: History: The 1974 Jersey Jam - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: History: 1974; The Origin of Freestyle Competition - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: 3 Ways Freestyle Frisbee Will Improve Your Disc Golf Game (Part 1) - FrisbeeGuru
It’s so great to hear the back stories of people like Deaton! Love to know all of the histories of influential players (such as the guys who are hosting this!). Can’t wait to hear more.
Deaton is correct when he claims the spirit of competition was rather back-biting in the late 70’s – 80’s. The cliques still exist however, but the spirit of the game and support of great freestyle skills remain paramount in what I have seen over the decades. Recreational freestyle in lieu of competition brings out more goodwill and camaraderie. Perhaps this is why some great players chose the former and not the latter.
Thanks for bringing up our missing jammers: Mikka Nordmann, and Pete Rosing, (also, lost but not forgotten are: Fernando Diereto [spelling?], Diego Gamboa, G. Kirkland, Pete Laubert, Tom Gleason, and… I’m sure I missing other freestylers who once were, and are no longer with us in the flesh). I was lucky enough to hang and play with all of these fantastic players (except Pete R.) and are reminded how many wonderful people I have come to known over my 35+ years in the sport.
Pingback: 3 Ways Disc Golf will Improve Your Freestyle Game (Part 2) - FrisbeeGuru
In addition to the benefits already listed in this article, being in excellent condition is a plus in any sport, even if that sport doesn’t provide or seem to always demand it. In sports like baseball or football, the majority of the playing time is spent just standing around. However, athletes in those sports will spend a considerable amount of time doing other activities to get into excellent condition, just for that moment, when it is needed. Most athletes in other sports will jog to stay in top shape. Freestyle will give you the excellent cardio workout that disc golf does not provide. Instead of a long run, you can get the same results and do it within a flying disc sport that at the same time will develop other flying disc benefits.
Ken Climo 12-time Disc Golf World Champion obviously hasn’t spent all of his time on the disc golf course. Just coincidence?
https://youtu.be/ZBrxvZmq24g
Pingback: 3 Ways Disc Golf will Improve Your Freestyle Game (Part 2) - FrisbeeGuru
Disc golf helped my freestyle game because the parking lot of the disc golf course is where I learned to freestyle! It’s a great activity to do while you’re waiting for your friends to show up (putting practice is also a good activity, but not as fun), and fun to do with your friends after the round. I will forever be grateful to Shayne Soble for introducing me to Freestyle. If he hadn’t been running across the parking lot doing a series of chest rolls and kick brushes, I would have never gotten the bug. He showed me the nail delay, and that was that. Long story short, disc golf can help freestyle through exposure to the sport.
In disc golf I’ve learned that you need to bring your energy into focus on every shot while slowing down your breath (especially to putt accurately). This definitely translates for being in the proper state of mind prior to and throughout a competitive freestyle routine. Even though freestyle is creative and reactive in nature (especially when recreationally and cooperatively playing among other freestylers), you still have to have a laser focus to execute your cooperative combinations as well as your individual moves accurately.
What I love about both sports, is that they both require enough practice and competitive participation in order to learn how to perfect your mental edge so that you can execute your optimum physical talents at the right time.
Pingback: History: 1975-1976; Freestyle Becomes a Sport - FrisbeeGuru
Thank you for sharing the history! It’s great to have this knowledge about some of the evolution of Freestyle Disc play.
What a neat interview, Juliana; thank you! =jwt
Thanks for making this available Jake!
It’s really nice to be able to review these!
Best,
Paul Kruse
As a complete rookie at freestyle, for me personally, commentary would add a bit of excitement. Most importantly it would provide me with education.
However with respect to all you experts out there who are used to the current format I do not feel this is totally necessary as I can l figure things out by replaying the video.
If there was commentary, I wouldn’t want it to overwhelm the “art” in progress so my suggestion would be just a small amount of commentary. A reasonable analogy might be what we hear for commentary when watching a figure skating competition on national television.
I like the commentary for the livestream but NOT live. Live commentary would affect judging and the play on the field….unless you could charge for headphones for audience members and do some kind of local wireless feed.
I think some type of commentary during a freestyle routine would be helpful for those who are not aware of what they’re watching. This is how we can get more people knowledgeable about some of the tricks that freestylers are executing. I agree that commentators should be positioned away from the judges so as to not distract from that process.
Been wishing there were vids with commentary for quite a while, voted an enthusiastic yes! Perhaps there could be voiceover & no VO versions posted, or a CC option for those who prefer to view them au naturale… 😉
Ahh, previous one is posted under the wrong subject due to my ineptness. The videos are most welcome, and the quality has been steadily improving. A line feed of the music used would be the icing on the cake, but there may be copyright issues?
Been wishing there were vids with commentary for quite a while, voted an enthusiastic yes! Perhaps there could be voiceover & no VO versions posted, or a CC option for those who prefer to view them au naturale… 😉
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Pingback: History: 1975-1976; Freestyle Becomes a Sport - FrisbeeGuru
I love the pink discs.
I asked Discraft if they can produce it again.
They answerd that they will setup a new SkyStyler color if someone will place an order over 10000 discs.
I do miss pink. UV was also great…very durable!
I haven’t seriously jammed in quite some time but was serious about it in the ’80’s. I preferred a Whamo High Rigidity for durability reasons but the Sky Stylers were really sweet to play with too! I found yellow to be really durable color but my favorite was the semi translucent clear plastic. I used to have one with a purple band and a white center design,so nice!
Great to see you on the site. When I was at AFO, James had a High Rig. We meant to play with it but never go to it. Hopefully I’ll get another chance. I also really like the HDX Super Pro model. I have one I break out from time to time.
Born 1960 Started jamming 1982
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In 2004 or 2005, JT Thorne was working on a z measuring device and showed it to Pat Marron and me. My fastest was with my UD underhand. Can’t remember what Pat’s best throw was, but his z’s were more than mine.
Another great conversation. I was nodding my head about Donnie’s comments about judging, mainly because… I’ve never really been able to evaluate other people’s play on anything other than an intuitive level.
One thought I’ve had about judging is to leverage modern technology…
Instead of judging as the play proceeds, have 4 to 8 cameras, maybe some up in the air on poles (or really techno mounted on drones 🙂 ) then (and this is the main point) do the judging after. from the recordings.
Advantages:
1) people could talk about what they are seeing — this would tend to spread knowledge and understanding to others
2) recording could be stopped and replayed — less chance of missing something
3) multiple angles — less chance of missing something
4) order of play becomes less of a factor. equalizes the playing field.
5) group activity — more cohesion.
6) Everybody gets the same judges. Nobody misses out on judging by virtue of playing, and conversely, nobody misses out on playing by virtue of judging.
7) might simplify the actual play experience. No more corralling judges, less stress about the details of the tournament so more focus on play.
Disadvantages:
1) it would kind of have to be a consistent camera setup, or at least above a certain threshold. So some kind of standardization process seems like it would be necessary
2) cost. Not anywhere near as bad as it used to be. obviously.
3) need tech savy people to set up rig. Could build up a standard ‘how to’ document.
Lol.. in the early 80’s I met John Kirkland in his ugly Lee nails period. Being lefty, he saw me throwing backhand counter zzz’s in Rochester and asked me to throw him some for jamming. He told me, “you currrently throw the fastest counter zzz’s on the planet and I know!”… nicest thing he ever said to me!- Paul Brenner
Pingback: Potlatch Freestyle Frisbee 2017 Review and Results - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Potlatch Freestyle Frisbee 2017 Review and Results - FrisbeeGuru
So sorry I missed it this year, but- Zeus willing- I will definitely join Juliana there next year. Looks like tremendous fun.
Just one question:
Donde Esta Los Videos?
It will probably take a few days…maybe a week.
For any camera nerds out there, I shot the routines on a new Sony A7Sii in SLog2 format. This makes the picture quality amazing but requires more effort in post processing. This event was a practice session for me with the new camera setup.
Lori and my routine is already posted: https://youtu.be/sJ6damM3nmM. Subscribe to my youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9sxrbAUxV1hFgOJruGigkQ) to see them as they go up, or once I am done I’ll post a new article here on FrisbeeGuru.
Pingback: Potlatch Freestyle Frisbee 2017 Review and Results - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Potlatch Freestyle Frisbee 2017 Review and Results - FrisbeeGuru
if more people could throw a two finger sub, they would easily vote for this throw
to bad PL is not around to confirm
i confirm that, Z!
6-9
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Pingback: How'd you get so good at Rolling? - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: How'd you get so good at Rolling? - FrisbeeGuru
Thank you, Ilka!
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Pingback: History: 1975-1976; Freestyle Becomes a Sport - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: History: 1975-1976; Freestyle Becomes a Sport - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Poll: What are the 5 Most Important Characteristics of a Freestyle Frisbee Shoe? - FrisbeeGuru
also important is a continious sole for sole brushing.
How could I have missed that? Great suggestion.
Waterproof for bad-wheather-jams 😉
Or on the beach, in the waves?
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I chose “Other” because the flat sole (no pronounced difference between the height of the heel and sole) is most important so that you’re not accidentally rolling your ankle. My favorite shoes are either volleyball or tennis shoes.
Agreed..no heel. I’ve tried playing my my hiking boots, but the elevated heel throws me off.
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Pingback: Poll: On Which Fingers Do You Wear Fake Freestyle Nails? - FrisbeeGuru
I am interrested which type of nails the most players wear?
Heinnails, Yarnails, Alinails, Tobynails, Shellworthnails, Krazygluenails, Bonenails, Selfmade nails… what else? Would be nice if you can make a poll 😉
Thanks for the great suggestion. It’s been added to the list of upcoming Polls.
hello !
As a noob, where can i find difference betwwen all of your nails ?
I use selfmade nails, but i’m glad if you can explain me the difference !
Hey, Laurent. Welcome to Frisbeeguru! Below a is a long answer from what I know. My question for you is, how do you make your nails?
The list is various nails that are made and sold (or given away) by different jammers. Hein Nails (made by Matt Gauthier) and Yarnails (Made by Dan Yarnell) are made from dental acrylic. They are very hard and durable. Hein Nails come from molds so there are different, consistent sizes. Yarnails are made individually and so have more variation but also more art…colors and designs.
Alinails and Toby nails are made by ALi and Toby. I don’t know how they do it. Maybe they can comment.
I’ve not heard of Shellworthnails but my guess is they are made from sea shells. Lou Sommeral makes Bonenails, which are carved from bones. They are very nice and glue on well. However, I think the Hein nails spin a little longer.
Krazygluenails would be ones made from Krazy Glue tubes. Players cut them out from the tube. Many years ago, this was the primary nail in use.
Another possible one are manicure nails, where people go into a nail salon and get fake nails that are extra thick. Lori Daniels and Paul Kenny are two who do this.
Self made would be any that don’t fit the categories above.
Awesome tagcloud graphik!
Agree! Like.
I used to glue on fake nails and leave them on, but they were kind of a conversation starter at work – “What’s with your nails?” Then I saw some players like Kenny and Scannell who had solon nails done and decided that was the way to go. I have them all done, even though, don’t use them all. Advantages: no nail kit, no setup / take-off time for each jam, never losing a nail, and you’re always ready to play. It makes it much easier to play everyday, as freestyle becomes a lifestyle!
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Pingback: Equipment -or- Tools of the Trade - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Equipment -or- Tools of the Trade - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Equipment -or- Tools of the Trade - FrisbeeGuru
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Hi Jake!
I’m sure I’m speaking for many people when I say THANK YOU for your hard work keeping “us Freestyle fans” up-to-date on tournament results! And I’m sure you’re doing a ton more stuff behind the scenes that we don’t know about!
Thanks Brother!
Paul Kruse
A.k.a. “Wheelman”
A.k.a. “The Flying Lizard”
Vermont USA
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“Third world spin”? This seems quite a problematic name… Is there a reason to call it that other than that it probably originates in the 70s?
Randy, Jake and Carolyn, Thanks for Shootin’ the Frizbreeze with me. It was great traveling through memory lane. The freestyle family will always hold a special place in my heart.
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I will comment:
“Toby nails”, or as i like to call them: “glastic nails”, are made of polycarbonate (a very hard type of plastic, the same which CDs are made of). They are not molded, but cut by hand out of industrially made tubes of different diameters, leading to different curvatures. So it is similar to the krazy glue tube technique, only with mich harder material. They make a clinking sound like glass when they fall on a surface, hence the name.
“Shellworth Nails”, refers to the nails made by Philipp Scherworth. These are made from cellulose acetate, a material which is produced out of natural cellulose fibers and acetic acid. This material is also used to make frames for eyeglasses. It can be bought as plates, cut to form and bent under heat to obtain different curvatures.
other organic materials that i know have been used is epoxy resin and nylon (Udo), and PTFE, also known as Teflon (Toby).
I heard that there are also experiments with inorganic materials. Dan Yarnell hat made some ceramic nails, i have seen James play with them.
Thx Toby, for the well explanation of the Acetat Nails (Shellworth Nails)
This is so helpful Ryan. I’m terrible with back rolls, it’s a hit or miss with me. When it does happen, I’m never sure why it happened but knowing what the legs need to do makes sense. I also have been told that using your thumb to help guide the disc towards your palm helps too.
Ditto to what Stacy wrote. Thanks for asking us to be guests on your very cool pod cast. It was so fun to talk about our frisbee days together, seems like we just scratched the surface. It was a magical and special time in my life. I don’t know how I got so LUCKY to find frisbee and meet all these amazing wonderful people, who are still part of my life. Good stuff. Good memories. Love you guys, keep up the great work.
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Swedish plastic. The PVC material used in electrical installation pipes in Sweden is extremely suitable for making nails. It is easily shaped, and polishes to a mirror surface almost instantly, using just a notebook. An eight foot pipe of 3/4″ diameter is about five bucks and truly lasts a lifetime. Additionally this plastic is hard but impossible tp crack at jamming temperatures. Strongly recommended. Grab me at any meet amd I will give you a handful.
Hein Nails are the best! I used the Swedish plastic from Åke for many years before Matt Gauthier began making custom nails. Now, I use exclusively Hein Nails, of course. 🙂 The Swedish plastic is great, but I will say that it does eventually wear down, which does not seem to be the case with Hein Nails which last forever! Also, it’s a lot of work to create nails from the Swedish plastic. First you cut them out (you need really strong tools) and then you need to do a lot of filing to get them just right, but once completed it is worth it, and they last a very nice long time.
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Pingback: Poll: What Are Your Top 3 Music Genres to Jam Too? - FrisbeeGuru
Name your 3 actual fav ?
Krafty kuts -> https://open.spotify.com/track/3dMuNx3B8pLS8EugWwjQcx
Chali 2na -> https://open.spotify.com/track/1DKOoM6Kg7Dh6ALFQ53ARd
Tha trickaz – https://open.spotify.com/track/1XU2zbHOrRviiTWnb0IIjm
Funk…
i need Funk!
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I’m interested in knowing more about the frisbee you have photographed with your article. What year was it made? Was the Pluto Platter a later model?
Hi Jake and Randy! Ideal warm up for me is 8-10 mins skipping…15 min stretch…10 mins speed flow into the jam!
My challenge is when I see my friend jamming I lose all self control and HAVE TO JAM NOW. So, I only warm up if I arrive early or am already exhausted. Actually, I will say that in Portland we all speed flow for 10-15 before throwing ZZZs.
Great explanation and breakdown of the body movements. This has been an inconsistent move for me for many years. With this information – I’m hopeful that I’ll succeed more frequently. Thanks for making this video!
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That was excellent, reminded me of the Warriors movie, the Frisbee gangs of New York with their urban territories and pecking order. It’s great that you guy’s are getting these stories documented for the future generations.
Love the old school ny memories.
Good work on the Early Joey years, more to come sometime i am sure
Neat!
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Pingback: Poll: Which of Your Throws Has The Most Clockwise Spin? - FrisbeeGuru
clock ud, thrown right-handed from the right side of my body.
maybe for stats, it would also be nice to have a poll intending clock for right handed and counter for left handend throws compared to another poll intending counter for right handed and clock and left handed trhows.
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Pingback: Poll: Which of Your Throws Has the Most Counter Clockwise Spin? - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Poll: Which of Your Throws Has the Most Counter Clockwise Spin? - FrisbeeGuru
Thanks you guys for such a great interview by two of the icons of freestyle! The brotherly connection is apparent in what Jens and Erwin share.
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Pingback: Matt Gauthier Demonstrates the Osis Catch - FrisbeeGuru
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I always try to avoid to bring slick on the outer rim (slope of morrison), because you need the grip for the throw and the catch.
But I usually put some slick on the edge of the rim, so you have less friction at doing [cuffs] (http://www.frisbeeguru.com/tag/cuff).
I do this only by using a slicked rag. Don’t spray it directy to the edge of the disc, because that you get slick on the outer rim 😉
I slick the whole disc. every surface
from fb post: I used to slick the crazy glue tube carved nails. Before the newest rings, I would occasionally slick the under of them. Discs: the newbie1 oops is to not slick the top, newbie2 is to slick the gripping area….? Having a blaZt in Milano. The Museo nello Tempio is fantastiico! Z’s,=jwt
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hey, I don’t understand that :
There are 8 cranks, 4 with the spin and 4 against. Clock
inside, clock outside, counter inside and counter outside.
I see two crank counter and two crank clock. Can someone explain me the subtility ?
There are 2 basic cranks. There are 2 spins. There’s with the spin and against the spin. So, 2x2x2 = 8.
The first basic crank: palm up center delay in front. Then push your elbow out and rotate the disc under your arm pit into an invert delay. Now, continue the crank by lifting your hand up while turning your wrist so that palm is pointed forward. Then bring your hand back down to a palm up center delay. This can be done with either hand, either spin, for a total of 4 possible combinations.
The second basic crank is the opposite motion of the first: pa,m up center delay. Lift your hand up and rotate your wrist so your palm to faces forward. Then continue the wrist rotation and move to an inverted delay. Finally rotate the disc under your armpit from the outside in and return to a palm up center delay. Again, this can be done with either hand and either spin for 4 more possible combinations.
Does this help?
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on another hand, don’t need no stinkin’ conditions, ever….
imo, exzellent video explanation of body form elements of the gitis ‘move’, leading, when judging, right to a higher number in the AI form’s column, titled Form! I am a relative huncher too, and I’ll be thinking about core and straightening my legs in a flying gitis. Next: how to make a good phlaud form: hmmm my non-catching arm is always down, not up or out. Help?
The whole disc. Inside the rim. I really make sure the rim is smooth as the smoothest surface known to a man. Yes. Silky Smooth! I sand the disc almost everyday. 2 Grits. 1500 pad and then 2400.
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Absolutely superb!
Thanks for this interview! You two are/were an inspiration to jammers alike. I’m very thankful to have played with and against both of you. You elevated my game and for that, I will forever be appreciative.
Thanks Judy. You were an inspiration as well and a significant part of women jammers who helped ignite the sport of freestyle frisbee.
Keep these episodes coming guys. It’s so refreshing getting everyone’s view of freestyle and the history of their own, or other’s development in the sport. I love that it’s also recorded for posterity! By the way, you’re both “off the hook”!
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I am asking myself if the prefered body spinning direction depends on the disc spinning direction!?
Like:
Clock players spinning counterwise.
Couter players spinning clockwise?
What do you think about that thesis?
I play clock and spon counter…hmm.
Here’s a possible explanation. The most common set to a spinning catch with clock is right hand pull under the outside left leg into the set. The motion of the leg and arm already has the body moving counter clockwise. Momentum from this set makes counter clockwise spinning easier.
However, I was watching Arthur do spinning catches a few weeks ago. Instead of pulling out and up, he did a right handed shoot across his chest and spun clockwise. I tried it and discovered that I could make a very consistent set and my momentum propelled me to spin clockwise.
Perhaps there’s a series of articles or videos about various sets that lead into spinning moves.
Interesting thesis Flo – Clock is my native spin and spinning counter is my native choice.
My feelings are, that it has nothing to do with the spin of the disc. When I give myself a counter set, I like to spin counterwise more likely as well as with clock Zs.
When I skate, I do it goofy. To do that I have to do 90 degrees counterclockwise spin…
When I do a drift with my bike, I do it counterclockwise…
I think my inner spin is counterclockwise.
But why do I do my osis catches clockwise…? Hm 🙂
because osis is a different feeling. its like the “against” of spin directions. also, you can then cath it with the same hand and under the same leg that you are used to. that makes total sense, that you spin osis in the other direction.
when i started, i always thought it is clear that with a clockwise disc, one should sbin counter, and with a counter disc, one should spin clockwise. For one, the set is easiest (non cross-chest set, right hand with clock, left hand with counter), and also, that way, the body and the disc are like two gear wheels, gripping into each other. for rolling and brushing, it is much easier to spin the other way than the disc is spinning because at the contact point between body and disc, both objects move in the same direction (gear wheel concept).
for me as a more counter player, it still feels better to spin counter, no matter what spin the disc has. so i always thought i was doing something wrong. but now i have noticed, that almos al clock pplayers spin counter, but many counter players spin counter as well. So i guess it is some sort of preference in the body, maybe like right handedness.
My body naturally spins left. I prefer counter throws. When I set the disc for a spinning catch, it’s left handed pull behind the back or under the leg set and go. But off a counter roll, you should spin right, to go with the movement and that’s always been a challenge because I’m not very good at spinning my body to the right. Goals!
I’m happy you found my article on turning in ballet interesting. I look forward to the results of your poll on frisbee. Kent balletfocus.com
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excellent! Thanks, Beast! =jwt
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Extra reason to attend, if all the folks in this photo were there too! Great picture!
Thanks! That was from our last annual DDC tournament in Germany, it was really wonderful this year – perfect condition, pretty high level of play, lots of fun!
Good chances that many of us will be at an overall event.
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The disc in this photo never had a chance of recovering. Clearly.
chuckle poll question: how many times have you dived into water for a disc? Alt chuckle question: how many times have you climbed up onto a roof to retrieve one? ‘Who threw it gets it!’ Z’s, =jwt
I’ve dived in more than I can count. Even for a golf disc!
Roof…yes. Tree…yes. There might be a disc stuck in the rafters at a community center in Seattle.
I love the Deuter trans alpine 30. It’s basically a regular backpack but it comes with adjustable straps usually used for bike helmets and it holds up to 4 disks perfectly. I saw Benno with it first and got inspired. 🙂
still love my FPA backpack- carrying it to every single jam since 2010. Thank you Tita Ugalde!!
A good definition fror “Nar” is: Where the combination of synergy and schism of freestyle disc tricks between partnership bears out something creatively expressive for an audience to behold.
Wow. Looks awesome with both regular and in slow motion. Thanks for sharing this video and the clear explanation!
nah
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10
Joey has a great ability to describe the ancient history of all things freestyle. It is an incredible fact that many frisbee players believed (and still believe) that frisbee can change the world. The element that makes frisbee activity different is the invention of things (games?) to play with the object. Freestyle is the jazz and the players are the jammers.
I have trouble with the quick time frame to “exhausted”. Not enough time to compose a meaningful hooray for your work and Joey’s content.
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Joey,
Dead Head here (from Jorma’s blog). No, I’m not stalking you; just searching for another avenue to communicate since “Cracks in the Finish” seems doomed and, frankly, absurd. Without further ado, let me know if this is acceptable.
Hot Tuna has a cosmic connection with Freestyle Frisbee.
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local ‘pod’ 9-12, but I count myself a member of Milano and Torino, too.
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I am now a full time listener for your pod casts and as newbie to the game, may I say how useful and informative these podcasts are.
This one in particular, hearing about his journey is incredible and I am a very jealous disc’er.
Can’t wait to join you all in Prague and start my own journey. Thank you Jake and Randy for giving me yet another avenue to improve. The Jamily is so strong, even more so than other disc sports. So grateful to be a new brother.
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Thank you, Matteo!
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jamming!
I have also use my keys, CDs, couch pillows, dinner plates, a laundry basket, and a microphone stand. I’m probably forgetting something.
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Thanks for having Stork on! So happy to call him a mentor and a friend!
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Wonderful!
alert(“Sky Stylers Rule”);
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Pingback: The Crank Part 1 - With the Spin - FrisbeeGuru
Great explanation. Very good examples. Plus, you make it look so easy! Thanks for making the video and teaching these fun moves!
The Oracle has spoken
Krae?
Kickover
kick up a roller
I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you Jake, Lori, Bill, Paul, Jan, and not least the Bologna and Seattle Jammers!
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Hi Jake,
I just happened to be awake at 3 AM EST and I saw this post arrive.
Just wanted to say (as I have said before, but it’s been a while):
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO FOR THE WORLD OF FREESTYLE!
You work at it tirelessly, and clearly with great passion.
It is appreciated beyond words brother!
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy Holidays to you and your family!!
Peace,
Paul Kruse (a.k.a. “The Flying Lizard”)
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Pingback: The Crank - Part 2 - Against the Spin - Left Hand Clock Spin - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Poll: Are You A Member of the Freestyle Player's Association? - FrisbeeGuru
How do I join, please?
http://www.freestyledisc.org/become-a-member/
Thank you, Paul!
Z’s,
=jwt
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Pingback: History: Appendix 3: The Harlem Globetrotter Tour Story (by Jim Palmeri) - FrisbeeGuru
Very fun write up by Jim palmeri! Felt like I was in the audience with him, this was so we’ll described. Wish we could see the entire show. Thanks for posting this!
Pingback: Poll: What is Your Catch Percentage in a Jam? - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Poll: What is Your Catch Percentage in a Jam? - FrisbeeGuru
This is tough to answer for most folks. I would call this the core value in creating a “Flow Chart.”
Too many drops = No Flow
The best of The Best (like you Jake) will have high percentage Jams most of the time and yet have the dreaded Roberto Duran (Manos de Piedra) Syndrome hit on occasion. For myself, I try to simplify as a reset, then increase in difficulty until Flow is back.
Ever watch the dart championships? Talk about repetitive, no one cares what the audience thinks. The audience is there to watch the sport as presented. We decide what the sport is, no audience pandering.
I agree long routines require more skills, but what players want deep down is to be watched and appreciated. Adding turbo shred is amusing and shows one aspect of play, because there are no throws. Are we looking to grow the sport? Looking to push the limits for the best players seems very short term. There is now enough laid down to master that the sport is finally defined and displayed as art. I love to watch Randy roll, but Murphs rolls are completely different and it seems silly to choose Monet over Picasso and say that’s the best.
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I agree that when the flow in a jam seems to be negatively impacted by a lot of drops, then “resetting” (so to speak) with simpler catches to boost up the rhythm of the flow is a good call. Great method to get the connections going again and keeping everyone involved in the disc movement between players.
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Few life experiences can be compared to my first major show….basketball halftime show for the Seattle NBA SuperSonics.
My partner, Ralph Williamson, and I had done a few community college basketball halftime shows as practice for this Dec. 26th 1975 show. But most community college games had an attendance of a few dozen to a couple hundred, a stratosphere of difference when walking onto the hard court floors that seemed to still be electrified by the collective energy of the NBA giants and intensified by the 14,000 plus in the stands.
I remember feeling a significant amount of fear and pride at taking our special style of disc play to “the masses”, not only was it important we do our best for the thousands of NBA fans but I recall feeling excited to showcase how the “toy” Frisbee, if played with a degree of athleticism, can be viewed as a sport to the sport media.
That show changed my life and changed how many in the Seattle area came to view disc play. The buzz was palpable from the crowd, we booked three shows before we left courtside. It launched a full time show schedule that lasted the better part of three years.
I continued to do shows, on and off, for over two decades. No demo was more impactful on my life than that December night in 1975.
Always a pleasure to hear Stork talk about the good old days.
Stork is wise
thank you, Jeff and Jake– great foundational stories!
December 12, 1974 Madison Square Garden. Half time Nicks game. Threw a full court basket which I never expected to make. With Krae Van Sicle, Carl Baker, Peter Bloem, David Perell, Roger Fox and myself (“Circus”).
My first was in Belgium in 1969 at a soccer game. Solo. They had seen very few discs then, if ever. What a rush. Mostly MTAs, TRCs, Distance demo and a little very rudimentary solo freestyle.
Jeff, and Gerry, thanks for sharing. I love the impact the experience had on your lives.
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Exzellent! =jwt
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Love watching old footage of Joey!
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Pingback: Word of The Day - Zzzs - FrisbeeGuru
I would associate that sound first with a Super-Pro, and then with any other of the original G-series discs- especially the 80-mold. Well ahead of the SkyStyler era.
Thanks for the clarification. I updated the article.
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I am one of the lucky guys to have met my wife, the jammergirl of my dreams, at a frisbee tournament – the 1984 Santa Cruz Championships!
She coyly asked if I “would show her how to throw MTA” and I stepped right in. I later found out she had been playing ultimate on the first womens Condor team since the ’70’s. She started jamming with us about 4 years ago and has picked up our small disc wind game like a natural. We jam wherever we go (mainly the beach)and it has been a great way to stay in shape and connected. We love our Jamily and invite you all to come PLAY!
Your Jam Is Waiting 🙂
Oh there’s not enough space and time here right now to share my family frisbee stories; I have tons of ’em. My dad and I played throw’n’catch with a PlutoPlatter in a rose garden in about 1961. And other times. My brothers and I played in the ’60s and ’70’s. ZXVRQ and I played lots when they were ‘just kids,’ and now look at ’em. Do they freestyle still? Yes but not often enough! ….I have a bunch of cousins who are playing Ulti, including some near cousins and my distant cousins famous Max and Alex Thorne. Proud of all this, and it makes me happy. Z’s, =jwt
Jake and I just saw Xiana at Kaimana Klassik just before it got flooded out. I hope she had fun nonetheless! Great to see her after so many years!
and granddaughter Phylamena age 1 1/2 is ‘on track.’ Hmmmm genes? =jwt
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My kid, Grant, played Ultimate in college, at Brown University. They went to college Nationals 3x in his 4 years.
My girlfriend, Juliana K, has some kind of accolades of some sort, I think. I’d need to check the records.
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Please finish the interview with John Kirkland. There is much more to the story.
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https://www.afar.com/magazine/far-from-the-tourist-trail-in-new-delhi-a-traveler-finds-magic
with some word substitution: magician to jammer, a jamily story that resonates!
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CHSVFT
1968
I do have a logo to share
The Atlanta Frisbee Club (ultimate) running atrong since 1978
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The Mobile, Alabama/ Spring Hill College Ultimate team celebrated 40 years as a Club 2 weekends ago with a reunion of 30 players and friends.
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Wow what a great Frisbeer field of jammerz! =jwt
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It’s great to have results in real time, and see one team play after the other almost 1 minute later, it looks very professional.
I really think that who won deserved it, so even if I didn’t know how this judging system works, I think it was fair.
Thanks for what you do!
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Pingback: History: Appendix 4: The Delay Story - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: History: Appendix 4: The Delay Story - FrisbeeGuru
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I don’t know when Randy played in his first tourney, but I do remember that he hit me in the forehead with a drive on the golf course in Seattle in 1979. Fortunately, that was before the era of beveled edge discs, so getting hit by a golf disc wasn’t fatal at 50 meters from the tee pad.
Thanks again, Randy! Nice to meet ya!
Speaking of disc improvements, I feel it’s time for an upgrade from the Sky Styler.
In case anyone hasn’t noticed, it’s over stable. It is always curving hyzer in its flight path. I don’t recall the early Sky Stylers flying like that, but I could be wrong.
However, a Freestyle disc that flies true to it’s release point would be quite a welcome thing to this Jammer.
Great to hear from JK, who brought the sport of frisbee to the world. After Whamo purchased CPI, they changed the plastic and the formerly indestructible CPI disc broke in the cold New York air. Many people saw how the frisbee could be a sport based item but JK did so much to promote that concept.
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Pingback: Dani Demonstrates How to Attach a Fake Nail with Double Sided Tape - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Dani Demonstrates How to Attach a Fake Nail with Double Sided Tape - FrisbeeGuru
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Appendix: after a couple more years of experience, it is recommended to use a nail-polish block to shine your own nail (until really shiny). That way there is no need for any isopropanol. It’s very fast, more effective and less chemicals on your nails. It holds days, but can still be taken off without harming your own nail (as it can occur with super glue). Perfect for beginners and pros in my opinion. Please share your experience!
Thanks for the update! I have not yet tried the tape but I will give it go. I updated the article with your notes.
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Pingback: Addressing the Disc - FrisbeeGuru
Excelellent conversation with Joey, thanks! Z’s, =jwt
Very useful commentary here abut playing left of the wind for clock and right for counter: Tommy taught me this a while back, a windy Paganello, as I recall (where he also helped me get some needed first aid for a temple disc hit). Thank you Tom Leitner, via Joey, I guess. Also, further OT, but dear for me: I met and hindsight wow jammed with both Joey and Richie in Santa Cruz a decade and a half ago, treasured. Joey reinforced to me Randy’s Seattle message to learn both spins, complimenting me that he could see I was working on them (and reinforcing my any spin any angle aspirations, to be able to play with anybody). I had never seen such smooth consecutivity as I saw in Ritchie’s plan. These guys are not just Anybodies for sure. Who to thank most? Z’s, =jwt
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Ha Ha Ha ah Ha Ha Ha tears of laughter pollinators
The the against-the-spin puddle take-in off of a long hammer, whew! I was audience for a couple hours at that tournament, Lower Woodland Park 1977, and though I didn’t see this, hey I saw a lot of stuff! The first disc tournament ever for me. Foundational! Thanks, John Kirkland. =jwt
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Pingback: Matt Shows the Equipment that Freestylers Use - FrisbeeGuru
Our first tourney was Santa Barbara 82′
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I was a member of the Rochester Frisbee Club in the mid to late 70’s.
I hung with Dave Moore a lot.
I just wanted to see if I could send my greetings to Jim Palmeri and find out how he was doing?
Thanks
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Very nice. I look forward to meeting you in the future! Good job Alex!
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Hi Alex excellent thoughtful article! Thank you…it was great seeing you and playing in Virginia…your frisbee passion is contagious!!
Hey Brett,
Thanks for the positive feedback. It was great seeing you too. And your passion is contagious too. I understand you infected several people in Canada!
Check out https://allstarthursday.com/ for all the details on the NYC jam scene.
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Pingback: The Jammers 2018 Will Be Live Streamed - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Impressions from VA States 2018 - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The Jammers 2018 Will Be Live Streamed - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Impressions from VA States 2018 - FrisbeeGuru
Hey, I was also born on Washington’s birthday!
See Rick, I always knew you were a cool guy. Also Julius Erving, my favorite basketball player of all time!
Thank you for the shout out! Sorry we did not meet but as you now know this is a happening much more than n event and very year I feel Jipped by not being able to meet and chat with new Va States Virgins..
Great show again guys!
I think Fabian is on the best way from hightower to heintower 🙂
If facebook is right, Clay is 62.
Some of the points Joey spoke about could be managed with the dial system. The current system structures the sport right now, so there is no or lesser use for competetive players to practice “basic” skillZ… With the dial system you could win a tournament with just speedflow, but you will have the best odds with a mixture of every aspect of the game…
Thanks for the great work Jake and Randy 🙂
There’s a lot to consider in this interview. I also believe as Joey does in bringing back some of what’s been left behind. As I played in the years before and after the introduction of the delay, Joey mentioned: “learn how to throw, and catch before you start to delay”. Before delay play, with TCF ( throw catch and flow) you never knew what you were going to do from one move to the next, you could only respond to what throw you got or what you were left with after each move and it was always different. There was no way of ever controlling the disc. Visibly it was very easy for everyone to understand. This made freestyle very exciting, especially for the player. I don’t remember freestyle being any less interesting before the invention of the delay, it was just a different play. Also, It would be a great idea to open competitions up to everything freestyle has to offer, whether in play categories or judging standards, especially play that doesn’t always involve putting nails on. Thanks for the interview and Frisbeeguru Jake and Randy
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thank you for posting all these videos,
they are very much appreciated
the cream of the crop
..so much to learn
wonderful
Pingback: Poll: What Spin Do You Air Brush the Best in High Wind? - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Poll: What Spin Do You Air Brush the Best in High Wind? - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Episode 68: The Stork Flies Again; An Indian Summer with Extra Herbal Sauce - FrisbeeGuru
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Seriously, though- both. Counter is my native spin, but since I play mostly with people who are native clock jammers, I feel like both spins are now native to me.
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shocked that there are 7 responses for counter.
-larry
…….. that’s all I can think of
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Started with frisbee tag at age 8 in 60’s with neighborhood friends. In high school was freestyle in Edward Hines Park, Michigan which has continued until present. All good times but the 464 local disc-throwers union were the best at Tamagawa river in Tokyo. No tourneys yet.
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Fossils Rule!
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And congratulations to the ladies who competed in Tallahassee as well:
1. Juliana Korver
2. Lori Daniels
3. Beth Verish
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Pingback: Episode 74: Trnava Frisbee Games Promo Interview with Jakub Kostel & Dexter Struz - FrisbeeGuru
WOW!! I had no idea of the magnitude of this event. These guys are incredible organizers. Great interview also. I’m heading out to a show at a daycare center this morning, but want to order a couple F. G. tee shirts when I get home so Jay Moldenhauer and I can have them to wear at upcoming shows. Cheers, Brian
Wow, thanks Brian! Yes, the event will be incredible. Dexter is a professional event organizer so he knows what he’s doing. Don’t forget to send me a photo once you get the shirt so i can put you on the wall of gurus! 🙂
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Pingback: The Freestyle Players Association World Championships Will Be Live Streamed - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: The Freestyle Players Association World Championships Will Be Live Streamed - FrisbeeGuru
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Pingback: Episode 75: FPAW 2018 Champ Interviews - FrisbeeGuru
Loved this episode! Thanks Randy and James, congratulations to all the winners.
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Episode 76 with Stork was completely fascinating!
I agree that perhaps this is not a spectator activity. To me, it’s an art form. Pure & not so simple.
It needs re-thinking
I must say, in the day, it seemed as if Stork was somewhat of an adversary.
But deep down, he’s a player first. And hearing him describe his efforts to protect what we had, and convince these guys that the sport was the way to go once the market had been saturated, fills me with so much gratitude for the gifts he rendered on all our collective behalf.
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Pingback: Freestyle Handle-Skills for all Disc Sports - FrisbeeGuru
The only thing wrong with that Stork-cast was that it was too short. We could also use at least two podcasts a month with just Stork stories. (Storkies?)
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Pingback: Freestyle Handle-Skills for all Disc Sports - FrisbeeGuru
Old Wham-O Frisbee stories are great. The reason the WFC Rose Bowl drew a big crowd was that it was new and the venue was pretty spectacular THE ROSE BOWL! Everyone had tried playing Frisbee and just about everyone had heard stories about what people were doing with the Frisbee and wanted to see it for themselves, well everyone has seen it. The spectators now are mostly made up of players and ex-players and their families. There are lots of things needed to make a spectator sport, hometown pride, rivalries, good-looking athletes in uniforms, etc. Sports is as much about theater as it is a competition and until there is better coverage, it will pretty much stay the same. This year watching the WUCC it was the first time I saw a big change in how ultimate has been covered. The camera work was professional, ESPN, the instant replays left no unanswered questions and the announcers were extremely knowledgeable about all the players, not as smooth as ball sports announcers but it was a real improvement. I don’t know how camera people know how to find and follow the individual players on the field to create the game moments while the game is being played, but it was happening in this tournament. They seemed to know who was going to stand out and be the heroes of the day and they were mostly right and the announcers were able to build on it and tell their stories. It was the first time I’ve seen the type of coverage that could create a fan base of non-players.
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Thanks for posting these! We had a videographer who released all the routines on DVD but has never been willing to put them online.
Erwin, Randy, and Ted showed some great co-op flow. A lot of syncopation, and a balance of mostly easy to follow double disc moves.
Cyndi and Paul revealed what was some revolutionary double disc ideas. And Paul’s turnovers are so creative!
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Very inspiring “interview” with Chipper…love the open heart to open mind approach.
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Great tournament, seems like a lot of fun.
25:05 Randy- ‘it still hasn’t gone Cirque du Soleil yet’ … has it not?
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Pingback: Episode 79: Kate Dow – Love at First Sight - FrisbeeGuru
Thanks Randy and Jacob it wa a great fun strolling history with you both xo kate
Nice one!
These are all very helpful! Thanks for putting this together!
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Pingback: Jam Britania 4 Will be Live Streamed - FrisbeeGuru
Good to hear Konn after all these years. He mentioned about Adrian playing disc golf, and I remember in Belgium that Adrian came in with a great score and somebody questioned it, at which point Adrian stood up and pinged a lid straight into a basket about 30m away. Priceless and hilarious moment.
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Pingback: Episode 81: Ryan and James Deep Dive - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Episode 81: Ryan and James Deep Dive - FrisbeeGuru
Pingback: Episode 82: Rick Castiglia Hall of Fame Bound - FrisbeeGuru
So interesting to hear Rick Castiglia talking about old times.. how I wish I saw Coloradicals live!
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What about solid crazy glue nails?
Cool idea.
Is there a criteria for playing conditions?
If not, how to balance the playing field according to different conditions?
There is no criteria for the playing conditions. Each team can decide what conditions are best for them. This way each city can represent their best…everyone has “home turf” advantage.
Though it could change, so far 2 are indoor, 1 outdoor, and 1 TBD
Memories from 35 years ago can be fuzzy, but the “Bill gets left behind” is missing some pieces. Both Rick Castiglia and myself were on the road trip from Colorado to California when Bill got left behind. It was my Toyota Truck with a camper shell. We would take turns driving and Doug was driving at the time. Rick and I were up front with him. Bill was in the back sleeping. When Doug pulled over, none of us knew Bill had gotten out of the back. By the time we arrived at the tournament, sure enough Bill was already there.
Money has contaminated most popular sports. Disc sports are also very affordable which is one reason that it is so inclusive. The greatest players in the old days were able to command fees for demonstrations and appearances in the media. The NY Times just published a double page spread about Ultimate with some emphasis on the “spirit of the game”. That spirit has always been important to me in Freestyle as well. I’m sure it will continue to grow but might never be a very popular spectator sport in my lifetime as I am in my 61st year of playing and doing tricks with this wonderful device. Prize money has the potential to hurt it but one can never know about unintended consequences. I’ll continue to spread the jam and the joy until I no longer can.
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thank you all great job,
I want to see more of the dancing kid from Bologna
Cotton
That was just thrilling until the last combo was finished. Thx to the Teams all around FrisbeeGuru and in the competing Cities who are making a competition format like this possible. Great job!
Aren’t there more Cities, warming up to show their skills? Prag, Karlsruhe, Roma, San Francisco… can’t wait to see all of them.
A very intriguing finals. NY really showed their stuff in the rounds they won. The pairs competition was the highlight. Two incredible performances. That was a very difficult choice. It seemed Berlin had their indie combos figured out in advance. NY pulled defeat out of the jaws of victory.
This was a great idea, and especially this round, came off very professionally, and quite dramatic. Great job everyone.
Congratulations Berlin!
Well deserved
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Hey friends, a comment about terminology.
I’ve noticed a couple of times that you’ve referred in descriptions of various aspects of nail delaying that the “act” is essential where one spins the disc on ones fingernail. It seems a bit misleading, as the delay itself obviously doesn’t “spin” anything… The disc spins…
Or not ;>)
Seems a little less precise than it could be, especially for the beginner trying to make sense of it all.
Thanks for letting me comment!
JF
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“blustery wind” will be the understatement of the weekend. That was a wild roller coaster out there!
Can’t watch video
Can’t watch video. it doesn’t work
As always, thanks for posting, Jake!
I rarely comment on anything I see or hear on the internet but, John’s samurai story in this episode then moving forward into state of mind while jamming is spot on in my mind. Thanks for expressing this!
DA
Daniel creates lines. He follows the natural flow where the disc wants to take him.
It’s a great style.
He’s also very humble and approachable. The fastest learner I’ve ever seen. Really gets the speed flow.
Thank you Daniel for sharing. I look forward to the next installment.
great interview!
Would have to have an interview with Daniel! could I get his contact info please? This is a national TV channel from China.
The Seal was actually an early paddidle move I did in 1978 as documented in PAW magazine issue #1. In 1980 at the World’s I did this move, got picked up by Bill King & John Anthony while still paddidling then thrown into the judges……music Iggy..i’m bored.
2nd World’s 1977. 7th ’78…..because Bill decided to play with Krae & Kirkland instead of the guys he trained all winter with…….9th 90.
Undefeeded World Kosmic Khastrophies Khampion
Vancouver Ultimate League Hall of Fame. Ultimate Canada Hall of Fame
Provincial Disc Golf Championships called the Jim Brown cup
Randy should now this……and where the Seal came from
Such an inspiration! Definitely one of my freestyle heroes. What I would give to see some of the routines she talked about! So excited to hear she’s coming back into the scene.
Much awe and respect from Berlin!
May all teams shred, and spread the jam!!! I can’t take sides, but I know there’s going to be a great match up among all the teams.
I own a device to measure wind speed accurately ($20) because players were always WAY high in there estimates. Like in this poll if you think you can play in 25 mph winds then you are wrong.
Finals Results?
Outstanding work and outstanding play! What a wonderful experience.
Great hearing my partner from 1982-1984…
I’m an access point!
Since 1995… Spinning Bees motto: Show them what they can do…
that was a great interview,
nice work Daniel
I love this show
Cotton
like! =jwt
Who will take down the Berlin Wall?
Vamos medellin!!!!!!!!!!
Good competition. A couple of drops here or there and there may not have been overtime. Good job judges. The Patrick v Monica round was omitted from video for some reason.
Congratulations Medellin!
frisbee peeps flocking, cool
yayz on the write-up
Thinking of players in italy from over here in NL, how to say ‘geluk’! In “two words”…. due parole!
Thanks to all of you for doing this. I have been out of commission for many months and this is a wonderful way for me to stay in touch. Watching all the fabulous new Talent makes this old pioneer feel great. I’ll be watching and rooting for everybody. The most fun wins!
Larry is one of the all time greatest for sure, not only as a competitor, although as an embassador of our beloved sport.
Another great story – Thank you!
I am using GoLite Jam Pack.
Pros: Lightweight and versatile (used it for a 4 day winter trip in White Mts, for dayhikes, and alpine summits). I was able to strap on trekking poles, ice axe, and snowshoes and the load remained stable. This versatility comes from the smartly designed straps and buckles and are few but functional. It is also remarkably compressible (no objections when used as carry-on luggage).
Cons: not very water resistant. Sternum straps are adjustable (good) but it fell off (bad) but GoLite quickly sent a replacement (good).
Surprises: I thought this lightweight construction would be susceptible to wear and tear – not true, this is one tough pack! I also thought is would be relatively uncomfortable – also not true. There is a comfort diffenence between this and a pack with a suspension but in my mind, the weight savings make up for it.
Just watched you on frisbee little
They said u had art work?
Hey, Greg. You can find Pablo’s art: https://www.pabloazul.com/
When I heard the Motto of Modesto. I thought of a city where you get there a a young adult and move away when you get to be a older wiser adult. A “playground” for young adults.
Jack Craig Burris Seattle hope you’re doing well.
Overhand wrist flip with a sub? What the hell does that mean. A straight-up wrist flip is my best counter throw, next to the left hand throw. Did I misunderstand the discriptions?
I remember visiting Larry at Stanford hospital with Kevin Buzzy Roberts. We brought special gifts including a target game redesigned with a velcro edged mini for target practice from his bedside. Larry’s stories are amazing, especially the Toe Jammers bit…”he could toe delay with either foot”>great interview and great memories. Did Larry really compete in over 30 Worlds? Unbelievable except it is true.
Really enjoy your interviews. You guys do a great job.
Paige “Doc” Anderson
Dag,
Fun to listen and hearing things in n.calif
Very fine to hear tommy Leitner as a young player..
I call it mental flossing, and enjoying connect to a day to see disc flying and recall the smiles involved.
A bit of the 1991 WFDF for dg- accuracy & DDC….Memorable
AmsterJAM(s) too much time between, and even longer to a ‘winterjam’ .
Looking forward the next fortnight or does the hurry-slowly next end of the month?
Nice hearing all from Skippy! Z’s, =jwt
I love these.
Me too. Thanks Krae, Jake and Randy.
This is great, is there a part 2?
Yes, more episodes with Amy are on the way.
Always makes my day to hear these historical recollections. Thanks guy!
Hi
That was an interesting chat w Krae van Sickle. He played a lot of the other games, too.
More about his DDC times. I missed when of if he played in a game of World War-Free(two words)?
Did he ever come over here in Europe ( or did I now hear it, when I went to the WC and didn’t put it on pause:)
Poland fellows you mentioned got my attention and probable listen again. There were some players from way over there for an ‘Amsterjam’, the one with the park can be seen on the train coming in from Amersfoort to Amsterdam. If you send me an email, I have a couple clips from then. One with Tommy Leitner, I can recall easily.
Nice to share how you seen and heard things, Surely today your playing catch somewhere?
I have to have gloves when I walk with a disc, if perhaps someone wants to play:)
good morning 7 okt ’20
Great story telling by Amy. One minor factual correction…Dawson City, Yukon is in Canada, not Alaska. I sometimes wonder if US kids are taught that the Klondike goldrush was in Alaska when in fact the gold was on the edge of Dawson City, Yukon.
I flopped @ Chez Ghetto !
Thoroughly enjoyable interview with Amy.
Fun hearing the backstories!
Is there a FrizBreeze episode where Amy talks about WFDF 99 in Kalmar, Sweden? She destroyed! If I recall, Amy won every event but Accuracy. And got 2nd in that.
The DUDEtte is an astonishing athlete.
Do you have a link to an “Dream of Jeannie” video?
Nice work kiddies!
It would be great to have a video lexicon based on the names of freestyle moves. Is this in the works?
Circus.
Checkout https://www.youtube.com/user/frisbeepedia
In many ways my style was the polar opposite of the beauty and grace that Krae brought to the sport. Ironically, all I wanted to do was look like Krae when I played.
Hey guys,
nice show! I assume that we can draw the same players you already drafted? Here is my team for 2021:
Juliana K.
Maxine M.
Ilka S.
Mehrdad H.
James W.
Edo T.
Kuba R.
Tom L.
Best wishes
Thomas
sorry, wrong thread 🙁
Hey guys,
nice show! I assume that we can draw the same players you already drafted? Here is my team for 2021:
Juliana K.
Maxine M.
Ilka S.
Mehrdad H.
James W.
Edo T.
Kuba R.
Tom L.
Best wishes
Thomas
Yes, you can choose players who have already been picked. Great picks!
Team Guardian:
Juliana Korver
Maxine Mittempergher
Ilka Simon
James Wiseman
Ryan Young
Eduardo Turri
Freddy Finner
Pavel Baranyk
Wow that’s fun!
My team would be:
Maxine Mittempergher, Juliana Korver, Emma Kahle
Kuba Radwanski, Daniel O’Neil, James Wiseman, Graf Mördi, Fabian Dinklage
Can I tell you how much I love traveling down memory lane in this interview with Amy. I was laughing and smiling at the crazy and unbelievable times we had traveling and performing in gigs all over the world.
One of my favorite stories that Amy didn’t mention was our crazy time in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico to open a bikini contest. From the delayed Aero Mexico flight to get there to the shanagins while we were there.
So many memories. BTW, I have on an old video Amy’s slide and Sh*! on Japanese television.
This system never works for me. The system will not allow for viewing videos, or printing my comments. It erases itself. I tried reaching out to report this stuff years ago. Was never contacted with any info. I gave up trying.
Damn that’s mighty fine. Thanks for bringing back the Weave!
Some nice new nuance there Jake. As always much appreciated for all you 3 do to keep this miraculous activity alive advancing and available. Cheers from Chicago
Thanks to Krae for mentioning me in the context of creativity in disc play. Since the beginning when I started doing simple trick catches and throws (in the late ’50s) and earned the name Circus when I got to NYC in 1965, I have loved inventing ways to use the disc creatively. I “invented” Sky Scraping”, Traffic Jamming, Disco Duel, Balloon Basket Disc, Splitso, Tripto, Three Sequential, Hall Disc, Massocism Disc, and a few others. It also is the best tool I have ever used for sculpting in sand when I’m not solo styling with the wind at the beach.
l
Really enjoyed this podcast. I am working with Peter Bloeme to bring organized disc sports to kids. We invented a game called KwikFlik to introduce kids to Freestyle as part of our upcoming Flying Disc Festival. It is a combination of DDC and Speedflow where each team has 90 seconds to complete as many throws as possible. Trick catches get extra points. Would love your thoughts on it 🙂
https://cheengz.com/flying_disc_festival/
Hi
Tim Rohrer is from Bern, Switzeland – not Sweden!!!
Please correct this.
Regards
Reto
My apologies. It’s fixed.
flying angels jersey, eh?
Hey, Randy! Jack from Vancouver here. It’s funny that you mentioned being at tournament in Vancouver in ’77. That was the first tournament, I think, that I attended (as a spectator), and I think it was Rosse Lapper who had made me aware of it. I had just started getting into disc at that time and had probably been doing it and being exposed to it for a year or two. If I remember correctly, I think I missed seeing much of it, but I distinctly remember seeing Krae’s 360 throw and, like you, being blown away. It was indeed amazing to see someone that couldn’t have weighed more than 120 or so pounds throw a 119 a hundred yards or more and dominate that event on sheer technique–and original technique at that.
Fascinating stuff. Really interesting to hear the genesis of the different tendencies in freestyle teased apart like this. I had a sort of fuzzy, general picture of it, but this made it even clearer, especially the scene in N.Y., which was a real crucible.
Thank you both, Sirs Randy and Jake for my moment in the Spotlight. It has been an Honor and a Pleasure. What a wonderful series you’ve created. Love, Pearl
Jake & Randy:
You guys have been doing such a good job with every guest. Thank you so much for the enrichment.
How do I send you a photo? I have an image of my ceramic tile of Sue to add to the collection of images.
The talk with Edo was great! Thankz, =jwt
Loved this. Skippy is an epistemophile of disc history not to mention a master story teller (many that he participated in)
I moved from Miami where I played freestyle abs thought going to LSU in 85 I’d have to give up disc sports. One of my first days there I saw Deaton in the field with his crew. I never really got into freestyle Iin college but played a ton of disc golf. Deaton would practice at Highland. We became casual friends. Our girlfriends worked at the Chimes together. Insane Foosball player and all around good guy
Wow what a good session with Tom! And…I really like the Mike Esterbrook vision, too.
We shall look forward to your podcast when your ready.
Our Frisbeeguru podcast is waiting. YJIW here in SB
Thank you guys!
✌️❤️
Thank you for all you do and have done for us listeners. I love hearing the stories. Completely understand your need to take a break. I know there’s more to come. You’ve done so much.
Thank you for all you do and have done for us listeners. I love hearing the stories and the history. Completely understand your need to take a break. I know there’s more to come. You’ve done so much.
you guys have provided a much needed outlet for Frisbee players to express their reality and version of disc history, I hope you keep it up.
Congrats on all you have done so far. Historic effort. Very entertaining and informative.
Thank you for the five years of passion, love, stories, and freestyle history! Our community is grateful for your dedication to this work, lifting up and documenting our beloved sport!!
Love you guys! Thank you for all of your hard work
Thanks Guys LOVE your work for quality reporting and amazing concept. I competed for Australia in the 80’s at Rutgers 83, Santa Cruz Worlds in 85 and La Mirada.I met many of those mentioned in the interview. My peak was 4th overall in distance and international award at Santa Cruz. after that did a spell as PDGA national rep.PDGA 2029
I’ve been listening to your past podcast episodes, and I have enjoyed them so much. I hope you can come back someday.
Hi Joey,
WTF?
Well that certainly speaks volumes about the importance of professional and user friendly/intuitive website design, due diligence and routine maintenance.
Kids today, eh?
I should think that as one of the legendary early innovators of the Freestyle art form, that somebody on the site must have heard your name
spoken in reverential hushed tones by the old school Freestyle Crust?
Maybe somebody should ask Stork if he has ever heard of you?
All the best from Bali.
Nice to hear from Judy Robbins. Thank you for mentioning my longtime freestyle partner Peter Rosing, who lost his life too early. Regards, Alan Platt, Chicago
Nice to hear this. I used to jam with DM on the parade ground at LSU along with “the Glank” and “the Hatch”, back in the day. Don’t worry, they know who they are. Thanks for the memory. DM never failed to amaze and innovate. Cut up Crazy glue containers were the magicians’ secret, I never revealed til now. Had to keep the onlookers wondering. They probably though we were a bunch of weirdos. Good times!